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Post by farnt on Feb 9, 2011 20:34:35 GMT 10
All quiet on the North Balwyn coaching front...and updates from North Boring?
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Post by Chardy on Feb 9, 2011 20:37:32 GMT 10
I believe that it is true a Penguin and Oriole have become Falcons......
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 21:35:42 GMT 10
The discussion on university clubs is always an interesting one, and one that is well worth having.
University baseball clubs (and probably their other various sporting entities) are unique. There is no doubt that they continue to make a worthwhile contribution to the baseball landscape in Victoria.
I’m with trober on this one. Although subsidies may be received from the university (someone will know, but I expect it is far less than used to be the case ten, twenty or thirty years ago), the challenges of running a club are still considerable. They may be somewhat different challenges than those facing “mainstream” clubs, but they are nevertheless there. Among the challenges is the reality that university baseball clubs have a largely transient playing group, something that needs to be addressed by those committed persons involved in club administration.
Yes, it is difficult, possibly unlikely or even bordering on impossible to introduce and sustain junior development programmes, but that does not mean that the university clubs do not have a serious role in helping develop and popularize the game. To my knowledge, La Trobe University and Melbourne University have a long history of connection with summer entities and to an extent operate as feeder clubs that thereby keep their players engaged in the game for the betterment of our competitions.
I have nothing to do with the La Trobe University club, but I would be highly sceptical of these claims of outrageous coaching fees being paid. Because something is “different” (in this case the club structure and nature of a university baseball club), we sometimes tend – as human beings – to put our own spin on things because of their “differentness” (especially if a particular club is perceived as being successful).
It’s not just now. In the early seventies, Monash was coached by a guy with the initials NP (if he is still around in a retirement home somewhere, he might like to comment). NP was allegedly being paid $ 5000 to coach the club (big bikkies in those days – something like fifty grand in today’s money). It was crap, of course. He was getting a uniform, his fees paid and probably a few jars after home games.
Yes, the university may have been socking in some money to subsidise the team and to maintain the ground, but there were people around who insisted that the figure was being paid.
Oh, and at that time the going rate for a VBA coach (winter as it was then) was $ 500 - $ 1500 absolute tops (usually for a gun player).
So while I take pakkyp’s point about voluntary service and about giving something to the game being a great and honourable concept (to which the overwhelming majority of Forum members will relate – most having done more than their fair share), I don’t see much benefit in conjecture about who might be getting what, where and why. When amateur baseball clubs put buying players, buying premierships and buying credibility above all of the more decent motives, it almost invariably comes back to bite them.
I know nothing much about the Monash club, but it seems to me that Melbourne Uni and La Trobe Uni are going from strength to strength in terms of playing numbers and competitiveness for the levels at which they play. Good on ‘em.
While it is self-evident that the game has to have players coming in from the kids levels if it is to survive, one of the great things about Australian baseball is its capacity to cater for all people, at all skill levels and at all ages. It truly has become a sport for all.
Let us embrace the university baseball experience – and the university baseball clubs – in the same way that we now embrace Little League, Women’s and Masters as part of the rich tapestry of a wonderful community sport.
We have Masters teams now that have a relationship with existing bodies but are virtually clubs in themselves (IE they run their own affairs, manage their own finances and basically stand on their own feet as sporting entities). Surely we are not going to demand that the likes of Golddiggers, Coburg, Big Cat Tomatoes and others run junior programmes to justify their existence?
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Post by offtheperch on Feb 9, 2011 21:37:34 GMT 10
That's right Chardy. They weren't at the club tonight to watch flies root
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Post by johne on Feb 9, 2011 22:22:10 GMT 10
GlennM, I cant control what the club did last season and I cant control what the club does this season.Im just a mascot for christ sake. im just stating the news from the falcons mouth. Are you going to get your own facebook Falcon? Just like you arch enemy Terry Tiger? Its been well know that both of you have been fighting a long and drawn out turf war in the south eastern suburbs, perhaps you landing the brother's Tierney is just what you need to gain the upper hand.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 22:33:09 GMT 10
I agree Trober, growth of the sport should be the aim, and the means by which should obviously be via Junior development AND Students, and Masters, and Womens ball and Cultural specific teams (see whats going on in the lower grades out Cheltenham way to grow the sport for starters ). So many players today are playing this game that never played Juniors, we are blind if we blinker ourselves to just one form of supposed growth, partic when we know of the drop off of Juniors in the 16 > 18 age range. This inevitable drop off surely must be supplemented by 'new' players to the Senior ranks that come from far and wide (and this should be encouraged just as much as other recruitment options by both the representatives and officials of our game). So cut the Uni's some slack I reckon !
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sbj
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Post by sbj on Feb 10, 2011 5:56:43 GMT 10
KC perhaps the Masters teams you mentioned could claim their over 35's teams as juniors
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Post by pakkyp on Feb 10, 2011 11:10:25 GMT 10
So cut the Uni's some slack I reckon ! Naah... but I want to focus on Monash and not the MWBL uni's. So Dafarm, care to elaborate just how many of your first IX were enrolled/actual students at Monash Uni in 2010? Or your second IX? Care to give a breakdown on the percentage of Monash Uni's '2010' students, ex-alumni and non-Monash uni educated players? Might be just me, but I don't think too many of the first IX were current students were they?
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Post by dafarm on Feb 10, 2011 12:46:12 GMT 10
So cut the Uni's some slack I reckon ! Naah... but I want to focus on Monash and not the MWBL uni's. So Dafarm, care to elaborate just how many of your first IX were enrolled/actual students at Monash Uni in 2010? Or your second IX? Care to give a breakdown on the percentage of Monash Uni's '2010' students, ex-alumni and non-Monash uni educated players? Might be just me, but I don't think too many of the first IX were current students were they? Oh dear I can't believe I am feeding the troll. The % is, 25% students, 25% Grads and the rest is open. The B1 GF team had 2 students and 1 grad playing. The B2 team probably had about 2-3 grads, a staff member, 2 students. In 2010 the number of grads/students was increased on previous years, the % probably went down as the new coach introduced 6-7 new players to the club (1 of whom was a grad). I've said it before on this forum that we are an open club, and in my previous post in this thread, aside from the issue of juniors (which we may be addressing), I haven't asked for us to be judged any differently from any other club. We don't need any slack, we just need our teams graded correctly.
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Post by dandyboy on Feb 10, 2011 13:05:16 GMT 10
I don't understand why uni's cant get juniors. They don't exactily beat the doors down at other clubs, you need to go out and get them. Seems like a cop out to me.
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Post by stuartcapel on Feb 10, 2011 15:13:09 GMT 10
In fairness dandy, it would be hard for a university-based team to just all of a sudden pull a junior set-up out of the hat.
When I was involved with the Hatch Shield (dafarm will know what that is), I was well aware Monash had all sorts of trouble getting a competitive team on the field because they were a University team trying to attract Under 14 players. The good players were already at clubs with relationships to the 'suburban' Sub District teams.
That said, I'm sure dafarm would appreciate some advice. What's Dandenong's approach to boost junior numbers for the coming season? I would imagine come and try days would be the main basis?
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Post by dandyboy on Feb 10, 2011 15:40:43 GMT 10
Defarm could try ringing Jade at BV like everyone else does. How many junior come and try days have Monash done in the last 5 years Defarm?
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Post by frankthefalcon on Feb 10, 2011 17:13:33 GMT 10
Hi all, Frank the Falcon here, Good turn out last night(50 blokes) to welcome the 2 brothers down to knox, along with Mitch Aryes. Jock strap, dissapointed you were not there to witness the event. John,It is in my contract that Knox Baseball Club provides me with a Facebook page, i am told by D.Rice it is almost complete.(look out for it) Also dont worry about Terry The Tiger. He does not like the cold so he only mascots during the summer seasons. John is your sports mangement group, Raging Bull looking for any up and coming Mascots? Let me know. Attachments:
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Post by johne on Feb 10, 2011 19:47:40 GMT 10
We like what we have seen of you so far but think you might need one more season of winter baseball before we send you over, we are in regular contact with NFL team Atlanta and believe that in time you could be a starter for their program.
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Post by dandyboy on Feb 11, 2011 11:47:30 GMT 10
How many junior come and try days have Monash done in the last 5 years Defarm? I gather thats a big fat donut.
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Post by stuartcapel on Feb 11, 2011 12:49:24 GMT 10
Pot...kettle...
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Post by pakkyp on Feb 11, 2011 14:00:36 GMT 10
I'm lost... so are you implying that Dandyboy is a big fat donut, or that Dandenong haven't held any Come & Try Days? I don't know if/how often Dandy hold Come & Try Days, but I wouldn't think they would be a staple of their junior recruitment... not when they can get ready made juniors who are disillusioned with the junior programs at other local clubs ps Goblin is there an smilie that features someone fishing? I would appreciate something like that being included!
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Post by The Joker on Feb 11, 2011 14:23:33 GMT 10
I'm lost... so are you implying that Dandyboy is a big fat donut, or that Dandenong haven't held any Come & Try Days? I don't know if/how often Dandy hold Come & Try Days, but I wouldn't think they would be a staple of their junior recruitment... not when they can get ready made juniors who are disillusioned with the junior programs at other local clubs ps Goblin is there an smilie that features someone fishing? I would appreciate something like that being included!
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Post by Goblin on Feb 11, 2011 15:40:41 GMT 10
I'm lost... so are you implying that Dandyboy is a big fat donut, or that Dandenong haven't held any Come & Try Days? I don't know if/how often Dandy hold Come & Try Days, but I wouldn't think they would be a staple of their junior recruitment... not when they can get ready made juniors who are disillusioned with the junior programs at other local clubs ps Goblin is there an smilie that features someone fishing? I would appreciate something like that being included! I will add it to the list once I get back from my booze up on the Gold Coast.
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Post by stuartcapel on Feb 11, 2011 16:02:49 GMT 10
No, sorry pakky, no name calling there. More an observation.
Just seems odd that dandyboy comes online and clearly ignores a question asked of him, yet he turns around and negatively posts regards someone failing to answer his question...despite there being no evidence that I can see that the person involved has even logged in and seen the question.
Me personally, it seems a bit of a double standard, but most can see that for themselves anyway.
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Post by dandyboy on Feb 11, 2011 16:30:40 GMT 10
""Defarm could try ringing Jade at BV like everyone else does.""
Dandy is part of everyone else so I answered your question. But here it is in stupid.
Dandy have a come and try day with a free barbie at the start of each winter season after letter droping all the local schools.
Defarm has logged on half a dozen times since that post, yet hasn't bothered to reply because it's easier to cry" its all too hard, were a uni". Like I said, kids dont bang the door down anywhere else you have to go and get them.
But the doulbe standard seems to be common, like say when you come in and play a season, win a flag and pull the pin the next year when you might have to play A grade. But everyone can see that too.
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Post by stuartcapel on Feb 11, 2011 20:40:52 GMT 10
For the record, I was happy to play A Grade and indeed did play winter the following year (albeit at another club in a lower grade due to my wedding and honeymoon)- the club decided against it. They just never organised anything for winter, which surprised me after their success of the previous year. I wasn't part of the committee, however if it makes you feel better I'll cop the entire blame.
Unfortunately dandyboy, you conveniently missed a question asked of you -
What's Dandenong's approach to boost junior numbers for the coming season?
Personally, I didn't think it would be that hard to answer, but it seems from your silence, it was. Makes you wonder really!
Now, Dandenong have near two full teams worth of letters of intent in for Berwick players I believe. Would this constitute more or less players than the come and try day generates?
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Post by offtheperch on Feb 11, 2011 21:17:36 GMT 10
This thread is getting off topic, it's the rumour mill winter. I suggest any future talk of Knox is placed in the WINTER FACT thread.
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Post by pakkyp on Feb 11, 2011 21:22:46 GMT 10
For the record, I was happy to play A Grade and indeed did play winter the following year (albeit at another club in a lower grade due to my wedding and honeymoon)- the club decided against it. They just never organised anything for winter, which surprised me after their success of the previous year. I wasn't part of the committee, however if it makes you feel better I'll cop the entire blame. Unfortunately dandyboy, you conveniently missed a question asked of you - What's Dandenong's approach to boost junior numbers for the coming season? Personally, I didn't think it would be that hard to answer, but it seems from your silence, it was. Makes you wonder really! lol... I missed your original question to dandyboy too... but I did see his reply that they have a come & try day with a free barbie, and they letter drop all the schools in the area. that's hardly being silent... Interested in this answer myself... although to be honest, I'm surprised there's only 2 teams worth of LOI
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Post by Ace on Feb 11, 2011 22:03:33 GMT 10
Maybe 3 years ago the Monash committee looked at getting a partnership with a school to try and get juniors. Can't remember exactly when it was, but it was shortly before Springvale did the same with Haileybury.
It would be good to start up something like this, even though the above didn't work out.
That said, I wouldn't be able to be involved due to upcoming work committments. And there aren't to many of our knowledgeable/skilled members who would be able to commit to running a junior team, or who don't already have a strong involvement in summer. It's hard taking on the 'mature aged juniors' and striking a balance between the haves and have nots at the club even without a junior team.
I also don't support trying to take other club's juniors for the sake of having a junior. That said, if a club had some talented U/18s or 16s who want game time in A1/2, Monash would be happy to provide that opportunity.
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Post by stuartcapel on Feb 11, 2011 22:25:43 GMT 10
He brushed over the subject pakkyp, but his not mentioning the LOI's tends suggests that the main source will be via come and try days. Now, should the number of Berwick LOI's be correct (and I believe several transferred to Dandenong last year), that would be around two- three full teams worth of kids moving from one club to another.
The Dandenong come and try days would have to be brilliant to overcome this as their main source of junior recruiting. From the outside looking in, they would have to have about eight or so junior teams this season to suggest the C&T day outshine LOI's.
Now, substitute Monash for Dandenong for a bit and say that three teams worth of kids moved clubs to Monash. This would give Monash a junior program, all good, no dramas. But how many extra kids would we have playing? Zero. So what would the purpose of the effort be?
All this would achive is an extra club with juniors, but with the same number of juniors across the board. How is that better for baseball? Might be better for the club that gets them, but it doesn't say much if a majority of your recruiting is from other junior levels instead of attracting new players. It certainly isn't better for the club that took the kids through early day juniors just to watch them out the door a few years down the trackwhen another club suddenly wants a junior or two.
Yes, C&T days should be a staple, but if you only get six-seven turn up and you say theres no established team, how many are going to join? The percentage wouldn't be high. Pakky, you've put in some hard yards at your club to start juniors, no one can deny it. It's difficult to start a junior program, even in a high growth area. Bet you felt the strain at times. I'd consider you'd have to multiply the degree of difficulty for a Uni club.
For the DBA record, I do think Sandringham should have worked for A Grade. I do think the club missed an opportunity to establish themselves in the DBA. Ask the committee about that, not me - I had stepped down after that summer season. For some reason, winter wasn't their priority. A shame, but that seemed the committee's position.
Do I think Monash should play A Grade? Absolutely, and I have told my Monash man that several times. I don't know that it's overly fair on the B Grade teams for Monash to win B1 and B2 again this season - what will it prove? That they're the best? They proved that in 2010.
I do think Monash should take some heart from Mornington last season. Mornington won one game last year - I wasn't an overall fan of their play last year when I saw them, but they've gone away and reviewed their year, and apparently have things in place for the coming season which suggests improvement isn't far away. Maybe Monash should take the same sort of route. Even perhaps A1 A3 and A4.
That being said, the Monash executive do need to look out for the club's and it's members best interests first and foremost, as all clubs should.
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Post by interstdbystandr on Feb 11, 2011 22:39:23 GMT 10
i think you'll find there aren't many headed to dandy from berwick - people on here seem to think they have an idea and speak on behalf of a club when actual fact they have NFI.
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Post by pakkyp on Feb 12, 2011 0:05:20 GMT 10
He brushed over the subject pakkyp, but his not mentioning the LOI's tends suggests that the main source will be via come and try days. Now, should the number of Berwick LOI's be correct (and I believe several transferred to Dandenong last year), that would be around two- three full teams worth of kids moving from one club to another. The Dandenong come and try days would have to be brilliant to overcome this as their main source of junior recruiting. From the outside looking in, they would have to have about eight or so junior teams this season to suggest the C&T day outshine LOI's. LOI's are exactly that... they aren't a given so I wouldn't read too much into them.... let's wait until we hear about clearance requests. I think a few clubs send a few 'smokies' out each season to stoke the fires. your thinking short term there... what about a year later when those kids successes/failures bring in more kids? Think half full not half empty Not necessarily... they are in a much denser populated area than pakky (10% of 60000, is greater, than 20% of 20000), and likely have a more mature multicultural population than the 99% skip population of pakenham 'where your a poof if you play anything other than football' (sigh). Plus they have a higher number of highly experienced baseball players to use as resources for potential juniors. an understandable decision, I would think a lot of work would be required to maintain a summer and winter club, far too easy IMO for good ppl to get burnt out. A completely different committee and group of 'enablers' would be required otherwise... It will be a different competition in 2011 (possibly very different), I don't know if they would be able to go back to back. Guess it depends on the opposition they'd face and the recruitment made by those clubs. As for the best... well they got the goods, but I think it may have been different if their main rival had of managed their main pitcher better instead of using him week in week out against the weaker sides. He looked a shadow of the pitcher (in the finals) that he was earlier in the season.
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Post by pakkyp on Feb 12, 2011 0:22:40 GMT 10
i think you'll find there aren't many headed to dandy from berwick - people on here seem to think they have an idea and speak on behalf of a club when actual fact they have NFI. It's the Rumour Mill, Einstein... fact has no bearing on rumour posts! I could rattle off 6 junior player names very quickly who have said they're leaving and I don't really have much involvement in the junior side of things... Go look up the word 'complacent'. Ignore them over summer at your own peril....
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Post by dandyboy on Feb 12, 2011 6:50:22 GMT 10
"I'd consider you'd have to multiply the degree of difficulty for a Uni club."
Stu please explain why its any different.
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