gamer
Junior Member
Posts: 34
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Post by gamer on Feb 6, 2011 21:02:03 GMT 10
I think a lot of people at Monash have only considered whether or not they will be competitive against the likes of Cheltenham, Berwick, Dandenong and Dingley. Realistically, they should be asking themselves if they can be competitive with clubs like Boneo, Mornington, Frankston and Bonbeach. I can recall Dandenong being the whipping boys for many years and look at them now. They are building a very competitive unit down there. They didn't take the soft option of playing in B Grade after many years of finishing on the bottom, they stuck with it and worked really hard to build up their club. Looking at their results last year they had 9 teams and 7 made the finals and 5 of them playing off in Grand Finals for 3 flags. That should be what Monash strive to achieve. Given that Monash do absolutely nothing to foster junior baseball they have no one to blame but themselves for the position they find themselves. Success is a cyclic phenomenon. After several years of success both Bonbeach and Frankston are on a downward trend. 2 years ago A1 only had 6 teams - we must strive to get back to a 10 team competition if possible. I say to you Monash, suck it up Princess!!!!!!!
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Post by 6for8 on Feb 7, 2011 0:51:03 GMT 10
I don't think anyone at Monash is taking a woe-is-me approach to the situation. Furthermore, I think your criticism of Monash's lack of contribution to junior baseball is unwarranted and shows a lack of understanding of the social demographic of such University based clubs such as MuBC. Monash holds a commitment first and foremost to it's members, namely university students. Apart from the high turnover rates of it's playing ranks that hampers continuity, the baseball club would fall firmly into the social sport section of Monash Sport and Recreation. The executive of MuBC would be remiss not to place it's teams at a level that would not detract substantially from members enjoyment.
To expect a university sports club to provide a junior program is absurd, and yes, a solid junior program is a basis for overall success but I'm willing to bet if the Farmers had a mission statement it wouldn't presume to reach the pinnacle of DBA baseball, but to provide an environment for it's members to enjoy the game of baseball.
Just my take on it.
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gamer
Junior Member
Posts: 34
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Post by gamer on Feb 7, 2011 12:40:19 GMT 10
6for, As a youngish member of the playing fraternity i can understand how you would come to this conclusion and have the opinion that you do. If you look back in history you will see that Monash won some A Grade premierships. This was not primarily as a result of University students. Yes, there was the odd Uni Student but in the main they were a large number of players (some high profile) playing under the Uni banner which is Govt. subsidised to a point. Tell me how many of firsts from last year were uni students? I think you might get a little surprise. Poor old Monash !!!!!!!!! So don't come this self righteous stand that we should look after the interests of the poor old Monash Uni Club. They have pulled the wool over the eyes of the DBA executive for decades. I think those that play within the DBA structure should be more concerned about the future of the DBA rather than what happens at the Monash University. Monash do nothing for the DBA other than meet their own ends, that warrants our support. Anyway, I've had my few minutes o the soap box, now let's get back to the senior issue. Let them come up to A Grade and work their way back up.
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Post by The Joker on Feb 7, 2011 15:16:41 GMT 10
That Teirney rumour was again aired today folks. The talk on the street is that the brothers had agreed and Mitch was also heading down from ringwood. Anyone confirm, or is it common knowledge? I'd find it hard to believe that three Div 1 players would all move clubs to play a season of B Grade baseball.
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Post by Chilli Wil on Feb 7, 2011 15:19:40 GMT 10
I'd find it hard to believe that three Div 1 players would all move clubs to play a season of B Grade baseball. Isn't that what the guys playing for Ringwood in B Grade did last year?
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Post by The Joker on Feb 7, 2011 15:28:39 GMT 10
I'd find it hard to believe that three Div 1 players would all move clubs to play a season of B Grade baseball. Isn't that what the guys playing for Ringwood in B Grade did last year? I think you'll find the guys playing B Grade at Ringwood last year would have been playing C Grade if the league hadn't approved their entry into B Grade? Wasn't B grade their thirds?
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Post by Chilli Wil on Feb 7, 2011 16:08:32 GMT 10
My understanding was there were 4-5 guys who were A Graders that didn't want to commit to the A grade lifestyle, but still wanted to be at a competitive level. The rest of the team were genuine 3rds players and young kids coming through.
I could be wrong and a "_rogers" could correct me.
Speaking of A Grade teams entering teams into B Grade, I heard Watsonia might be doing that. Also heard that Mitchell Majors are looking at getting back into B Grade as well. 10 teams in B Grade next year sounds good to me.
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Post by wearnie52 on Feb 7, 2011 18:34:52 GMT 10
6for8, i agree to an extent that they are a University based club and they are somewhat different to other clubs. Certainly difficult as far as the whole junior thing goes.
But does this mean that the league should allow them to just play B Grade every year, no matter the success they have down there?? If that's the case, then A Grade should just be a four or five team comp, and team's down the bottom should all get to play B Grade where they'll win more games.
The Dandenong example is a great one Gamer.
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Post by pakkyp on Feb 7, 2011 19:35:00 GMT 10
6for8, i agree to an extent that they are a University based club and they are somewhat different to other clubs. Certainly difficult as far as the whole junior thing goes. But does this mean that the league should allow them to just play B Grade every year, no matter the success they have down there?? If that's the case, then A Grade should just be a four or five team comp, and team's down the bottom should all get to play B Grade where they'll win more games. The Dandenong example is a great one Gamer. I guess one option is for them could be to split the B1 and B2 teams into two B1 teams and try and play off against each other in a B grade final?
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Post by broohaha on Feb 7, 2011 20:47:20 GMT 10
I'm with gamer and pakkyp on the Monash debate. It's a little naive and sad to play the "hard done by" card. I don't for a second believe that any sport falls into a social sport section within the Monash Sport and Recreation framework including baseball, especially considering the reports on the amount of money thrown around for the coach! Surely it's in the best interests of baseball as a whole including the clubs involved to have teams fighting to be as competitive and play as high as possible. Having 6 teams in an A1 competition, such as the situation 2 years ago is a joke. Every 5 weeks teams are playing eachother and it becomes too repetitive and predictable. Although Boneo and Mornington struggled a little last year, I feel it is a positive thing that enhances the A1 comp and shows clubs what is required to be competitive. A little recruiting and club development will see improvement and strengthen not only the clubs but the whole competition.
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Post by wearnie52 on Feb 7, 2011 21:22:38 GMT 10
broohaha, we're all on the same page here. Having 4 teams in A Grade would be ridiculous. All clubs go through good times and bad, and the ones who can stick it out are the ones who always come through and end up doing well.
If the DBA 'fold' and allow Monash to play B Grade again this year, i think it will be a huge blow to the whole league, and a slap in the face to clubs like Mornington and Boneo who toughed it out and did win a few games last year.
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Post by pakkyp on Feb 7, 2011 21:57:25 GMT 10
broohaha, we're all on the same page here. Having 4 teams in A Grade would be ridiculous. All clubs go through good times and bad, and the ones who can stick it out are the ones who always come through and end up doing well. If the DBA 'fold' and allow Monash to play B Grade again this year, i think it will be a huge blow to the whole league, and a slap in the face to clubs like Mornington and Boneo who toughed it out and did win a few games last year. So if Monash go up, you either create a bye or require an A grade club to either drop down or another B grade club to go up. Then what happens to the remaining clubs in B grade? You say 4 teams was bad Wearnie52, there is the potential to leave B grade with 3 teams.... or have us playing A3/A4 teams, (or playing clubs 5th, 6ths, 7ths teams if Capel has his way). B grade clubs may as well stop thinking about headhunting a few experienced players to help build themselves for the future... there will be no incentive for them to come except $$$ and not everyone can afford to buy flags every year. I understand the need to improve A grade with more teams (and hopefully improving the competitiveness of the league). But you risk alienating the other clubs in B grade who are not up to the task of A grade yet... What is better for the DBA as a whole... a weak Monash side in A grade that has to rely on recruitment of experienced players and bringing in athletic students, but will likely drop down when the core group get too old? Or potentially destroying a B grade comp where there are at least 2 clubs making an effort to build a successful junior program so that in future years they can make the move to A grade and likely stay there?
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Post by Chilli Wil on Feb 7, 2011 22:44:26 GMT 10
or have us playing A3/A4 teams, (or playing clubs 5th, 6ths, 7ths teams if Capel has his way). Is the idea that instead of A1-4 and B1-3, it goes A1 & Res, B1 & Res, C1 & Res, D1? And teams are graded to (hopefully) find a competitive balance?
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Post by stuartcapel on Feb 8, 2011 7:43:05 GMT 10
From memory, (and a little cut and paste), the suggestion went something like this.
A Grade & A Reserve
Berwick Bonbeach Boneo Chelsea Cheltenham Dandenong Dingley Frankston Monash University Mornington
B Grade & Reserve
Berwick (3+4) Bonbeach (3+4) Carrum Downs (1+2) Cheltenham (3+4) Dandenong (3+4) Dingley (3+4) Frankston (3+4) Mornington (3+4)
C Grade
Cheltenham (5) Dandenong (5) Dingley (5) Dingley (6) Oakleigh-Ormond/Glenhuntly (1) Pakenham (1)
D Grade
Boneo (3) Carrum Downs (3) Carrum Downs (4) Chelsea (3) Dandenong (6) Dingley (7) Monash University (3) Mornington (5) Oakleigh-Ormond/Glenhuntly (2) Pakenham (2)
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Post by rebelwithoutaclue on Feb 8, 2011 8:51:47 GMT 10
I think there is only 2 sensible options. Bring monash and Chelsea up and keep boneo and mornington up as well. Otherwise revert back to the 6 team comp. The 6 team comp was repeatitive but it was a consistently high quality of baseball. I for one do not want to play in another game where we score 13 in the top of the first....
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Post by rebelwithoutaclue on Feb 8, 2011 8:55:20 GMT 10
Ps. I think it is important to note that monash field a womens team, where frankston, dandy, bonbeach, dingley and chelt do not. It's not a substitute for a junior program but it is importantant to the future of baseball and the DBA IMHO
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Post by pakkyp on Feb 8, 2011 11:56:49 GMT 10
Ps. I think it is important to note that monash field a womens team, where frankston, dandy, bonbeach, dingley and chelt do not. It's not a substitute for a junior program but it is importantant to the future of baseball and the DBA IMHO No offence to the women, but from my understanding the only reason the DBA has a women's league is because Monash pushed for the DBA to take control as the team entry fees were $500 less than what BV charged prior to this. The success or failure of the league will have nothing to do with the womens comp. The Women's comp isn't an attractive option for new clubs to develop a women's program, the top performing teams tend to be filled with state and national players (or exstate and national players) generally playing Div 1 in summer. We explored the opportunity, and the general consensus was a team of new women players would be better off in the B3 comp then the women's comp. Carrum Downs looks like they struggled and they had a few softballers from my understanding, who at least had some sense of the basics, and had Berwick players come down to assist with their development. I don't like Capel's structure as is, but I have seen a 'tweaked' version which is far more appealing for a club like ours who are/wil be attempting to recruit a few decent players from the A1/A2 ranks.
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gamer
Junior Member
Posts: 34
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Post by gamer on Feb 8, 2011 12:34:55 GMT 10
Stuart Capel, The more I think about it the more I think you are on the right track. One question I would have though, in what capacity will Cheltenham be participating in the DBA thsi year? Further to this why dont' the DBA look to offer a cheaper option to some of the eastern clubs to move across to the DBA?
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Post by The Joker on Feb 8, 2011 12:51:10 GMT 10
My solution woudl be more drastic.
1. Merge DBA with MWBL 2. Divide new competition into conferences (North, South, East, West) 3. 2:1 ratio of conference to interleague games 4. 'Premiers' of each conference playoff for full bragging rights
Mmmm... unification.... :-P
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gamer
Junior Member
Posts: 34
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Post by gamer on Feb 8, 2011 13:01:52 GMT 10
The last thing I would ever want to see is for the DBA to come under the direct control of Baseball Victoria. I know the DBA are under indirect control but still have their own destiny in their hands. The minute Baseball Victoria take full control we can all expect to see all winter fees sky rocket. We are already seeing insurance / regustration fees jump significantly for what reason? I suspect it is to bolster the BV coffers to cover bourgening costs over summer. Gotta pay for all the hanger-onners some how. Apart from all those points I would go for it - provided the suggested joint venture had their own autonomy.
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Post by slypig on Feb 8, 2011 14:49:21 GMT 10
i hear cheltenham will be playing in dba as a number of players dont want to play in the other league due to the location of grounds ect.
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Post by Ace on Feb 8, 2011 16:43:36 GMT 10
For starters, though I'm no longer on the committee at monash, I can guarantee the coach is not being paid A-grade or summer money.
Monash is a small club, with 3 teams; possibly with a women's team. Hoping to get a 4th team, but that is reliant on first year's. The whole rhetoric is playing baseball at an affordable rate. This is only possible due to the committee's stand that they will not pay players. And rightly so.
I personally don't feel like i should be paying for someone else to play the game.
For a history lesson - the club used to receive grants from the University that they spent on paying guys to play (which is why 6 years ago the club was competitive in a-grade). The club no longer gets these grants as the uni has shifted from a sports focus to a research/academic one. It has realised the mistake of spending the funds on players.
Their direction now is to build faciilities that will attract players - such as the batting cage extension so that now 2 people can hit at once. This is, imho, a much better strategy for growth. Trainings will be more productive. The rookies attracted will have a chance to improve.
Monash introduced me to the game 5 years ago, and like many others, i struggled. You can't expect guys like that to play A2 or A3. That was done 3 years ago. The club collectively won 4.5-5.5 games for the year, 3 of which were against Chelt in A2 who played U/16s there that year. And then the club shrank to 2 teams and B-grade the following year - where it was more comeptitive.
Once the club has the cattle to be competitive, it'll play in A-grade. Hopefully in 2012. But remember, the club's only decent pitcher is a woman. There is no league MVP like Boneo had. So if any MVP calibre guys want to join the club, I'd suggest contacting Michael Hunt (the coach) or Benny Chiu (President). I'm guessing fees will be somewhere in the range of $220-250 this year.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 17:25:48 GMT 10
Any discount for 60s graduates, Ace?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2011 20:35:16 GMT 10
The last thing I would ever want to see is for the DBA to come under the direct control of Baseball Victoria. I know the DBA are under indirect control but still have their own destiny in their hands. The minute Baseball Victoria take full control we can all expect to see all winter fees sky rocket. We are already seeing insurance / regustration fees jump significantly for what reason? I suspect it is to bolster the BV coffers to cover bourgening costs over summer. Gotta pay for all the hanger-onners some how. Apart from all those points I would go for it - provided the suggested joint venture had their own autonomy. There's been some really creative and passionate discussion in this thread, gamer, but your comments can't be allowed to go through to the keeper. I don't know what sort of relationship the DBA has with Baseball Victoria, but I expect it is similar to what applies with the other winter associations. That is to say, if any association is running its affairs competently - and in the best service of its members - my belief is that BV has no interest whatsoever for "direct control" of any winter league. I know that to be the case with the GBA and the Ballarat league, the latter of which continues to be assisted and nurtured by BV without any strings attached as it seeks to rebuild. I'm sure that the MWBL has no plans for relinquishing control of the largest winter league in Australia. Why would it? And why would BV be interested if a league is already functioning perfectly OK? I could stand corrected, but I do not believe that winter affiliation and registration fees have been increased significantly by Baseball Victoria since unification (which is arguably the best thing to have happened for Victorian baseball generally in the past 90 years). If I am wrong, gamer, please inform this Forum with some hard figures so that we can make our own judgments independent of assertions being made here. I'm sure our members would be interested in discussing any increase in winter costs imposed by Baseball Victoria. Among all of the other implications, unification of Victorian baseball now means that Baseball Victoria is to an extent the servant of the winter leagues (albeit a paid servant). Its resources have become winter baseball resources, offering a massive opportunity for winter leagues and winter clubs to request and to demand whatever reasonable assistance is required to help develop the game in their area. As a bloke who has been closely involved with winter (and summer) leagues for a fairly long time, I just say please avail yourselves of the opportunity to call upon Baseball Victoria resources, to work with them in a common interest, to demand value for money and to help us jointly make the sport stronger and better. If winter leagues themselves choose to unilaterally crank up their fees, or if the ABF continues to screw baseballers and baseball families whenever and wherever it can, than that is another issue. And it is one that should be addressed. Elements in the ABF and BV do not like what this Forum stands for, principally because they have no control over what we say and do. But while we don’t mind being loose cannons, there is a fundamental "fairness" issue that needs to be observed if we are to retain credibility with our membership. You talk about measures being taken to "bolster the BV coffers to cover burgeoning costs over summer"? On what do you base that? What are those measures? "Gotta pay for all the hanger-onners some how"? Who exactly are the “hanger-onners” you are talking about? And on what do you base your judgment of their performance? Don't get me wrong, gamer. We'll create havoc whenever we feel we should. But you have to give us more than you have here.
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Post by broohaha on Feb 8, 2011 21:11:08 GMT 10
Oh come on Ace, I'll give you some tissues and let's get over talking about Monash. I think from reading it's obvious a larger A1, A2 competition is agreed among forum members, this means Monash and Chelsea hopefully going up to A grade. This can only be a good thing for the DBA and baseball in general - that's an opinion and we're all entitled to that but let's not try and shadow the truth. I believe from very good sources that the Monash coach got paid significant money for a team playing B grade and for a guy that has never coached a senior game in his life before last year season. If you know otherwise please confirm, no issues if this was the case but if it was then the issue of "social sport" within the Monash Sport and Recreation fraternity is just crap if not, harden up and give A grade a go!
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Post by pakkyp on Feb 8, 2011 21:20:17 GMT 10
Oh come on Ace, I'll give you some tissues and let's get over talking about Monash. I think from reading it's obvious a larger A1, A2 competition is agreed among forum members, this means Monash and Chelsea hopefully going up to A grade. This can only be a good thing for the DBA and baseball in general - that's an opinion and we're all entitled to that but let's not try and shadow the truth. I believe from very good sources that the Monash coach got paid significant money for a team playing B grade and for a guy that has never coached a senior game in his life before last year season. If you know otherwise please confirm, no issues if this was the case but if it was then the issue of "social sport" within the Monash Sport and Recreation fraternity is just crap if not, harden up and give A grade a go! how can you not pay bucket loads to a coach who's inspirational speech to his players one game was to proclaim how hard it would be playing without their best player (himself)...
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Post by broohaha on Feb 8, 2011 21:23:41 GMT 10
I've heard he fancy's his own ability just a little and doesn't mind letting others know it either!!
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Post by dafarm on Feb 8, 2011 21:35:34 GMT 10
Any discount for 60s graduates, Ace? Heh, no discounts there KC (and I don't think you'll be the oldest guy on our playing list either...) Thank you all for your comments (esp 6for8), but, to address a few perceptions that may be out there... Sigh, it's time for the official voice of dafarm to offer some sanity and wisdom to this issue. In fact Monash Uni have made no official decision about playing in A-grade yet. In principle we are absolutely in favour of the winner of B-grade being given the option to be promoted to A-grade. (not that there is a publicly available, published rule for it). The decision is in question quite simply, because of list strength and primarily pitching. Here are the facts and figures. Previous B-grade winners Sandringham and Boneo, absolutely wiped the B1 floors in their premiership seasons - we didn't do that and we were playing in a weakened 6 team comp (as opposed to an 11 team comp in 2010 and 9 teams in 2009). And without wanting to be sexist, Ace is right, by far and away our best pitcher is a woman who is just coming off ankle surgery. Her ERA was 2.25 last year and pitched 9 complete innings in the 2010 GF for 3 runs. As a club though, we don't expect her to be able to complete effectively against A-grade men next season - and she doesn't want to. Our next best pitcher had an ERA of 6. We would be completely negligent as a committee to go into an A-grade season without adequate pitching, and it's bad for our opposition who want to play competitive baseball. If a club would like to loan us two fee-paying pitchers on permits (or maybe I could get the old devils advocate himself pakkyp to propose the old "university student claim rule" at a DBA meeting ) , please PM me. The coach and I assessed our lists during the off season and compared them to Mornington who finished bottom with 1 win and a for-against of 54-197. We don't believe we are as strong as they are yet (pending recruiting). Juniors will always be difficult for us, but have been mentioned at committee meetings of late, however it's probably 10 years away from fruition in terms of seeing a junior player taking the field as a senior. It could happen. Even so, clubs like us and St Kilda have a very good record (without juniors) of introducing new people to the game. Like Ace, I never played baseball as a junior. Last year we had 8 new players to baseball. It might not be a junior program, but that and the womens team is our contribution to growing the game at the moment. In anycase, Monash has always entered its teams in the highest possible grade it can reasonably compete in (A-grade for all but the last 2 years since 1979). If anyone can think of a year when this has not happened, post it up here. If we can compete in A-grade - and this decision is still pending - we will go up. And finally, Broohaha, the coach is paid at the market rate for 3 mens and 1 womens team. It was refreshing to have someone wanting to coach approach us. I have made countless fruitless phonecalls in previous years. He's been a great addition to the club. If the coach was worried about money he'd be better off spending the time he spends at baseball working at a second job. Monash Sport doesn't really care about whether we pay a coach or not. The football club and soccer clubs all have coaching payrolls that are paid out of private club funds since VSU - a good thing in my opinion. The cricket club is the exception, I believe they get extra funding being a premier competition. Good luck to all those out there running your own clubs this coming winter. * as a side note, having spoken to my counterpart at Melb Uni, it's interesting that the MWBL is thinking of implementing a junior criteria on their A-grade competition, to make it harder for Melb to stay up! At the end of the day, clubs need to be graded appropriately. That's all we can ask for.
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Post by pakkyp on Feb 8, 2011 21:41:17 GMT 10
Oh come on Ace, I'll give you some tissues and let's get over talking about Monash. Careful, those tissues won't be used for what they were intended for Whilst opinion seems almost united, almost like some concerted effort to force the matter, I guess only time will tell. After all I don't believe there is any actual rule/bylaw that requires the B grade winner be promoted.... just a strong willed (rightly or wrongly) president who essentially forced the promotion of Boneo, and if rumor is true, he won't be there this winter to force the same of Monash.
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Post by dafarm on Feb 8, 2011 21:50:04 GMT 10
Oh and I apologise for not obeying forum etiquitte by refraining from baiting other members of the forum. Sorry pakkyp.
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