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Post by russellf on Sept 18, 2008 11:22:42 GMT 10
Wanting to know what we all think about the current transfer procedures and whether a fee structure similar to that of South Australia would be more beneficial to baseball as a whole
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Post by dc on Sept 18, 2008 11:35:11 GMT 10
Good to have you back ferg. It's a free country and I believe people (juniors should have rules) should be able to play wherever they want. Unless someone owes fees, who is the league to tell someone they can't play somewhere? We are not professionals, we never will be professionals and some clubs need to stop behaving like they are losing their franchise player when a bloke wants to leave.
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Post by p26 on Sept 18, 2008 11:39:06 GMT 10
Similar plan has just been implemented in WA. For those who don't know, a team names it's top 10 players each year and then second ten as well i think? If one of the top 10 goes to another club, the new club pays the old club $1,500. If it is a second tier player (ie players 11 - 20) they pay $750 I think?
In principle it has merit. However our club over here was the first to see it happen. A player from a bottom ranked team wanted to leave their club to play at ours (minor premiers last year). It was in his best interests as he was going to get better development and we had lost our import that played in his position.
Despite this player approaching our club, and the fact that the player was planning to play with us for two seasons and then return, our club was still required to pay the $1,500.
Keep in mind that in WA there is only State League, there is no div 2 and no relegation. Makes it a different kettle of fish as rebuilding is a lot less difficult if you don't face the threat of relegation.
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Post by russellf on Sept 18, 2008 11:39:47 GMT 10
no but we should be encouraging the other clubs to improve themselves.... if they keep losing their players then what is the point for them... at least under a different system they will get something for them that they can pour back into facilities improvement or something... why do you think juniors should have rules?
the proposed plan will amost force all the clubs to focus on developing some degree of junior program... which i'm sure you agree can only result in the betterment of baseball
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21
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by 21 on Sept 18, 2008 11:40:12 GMT 10
agreed DC, but what if that player is a "franchise player" as you say, played his junior days at the club and the club has helped put in countless hours of training with that player and is still young enough to help that club rise to a higher level..what about the Higher grade club that doesnt have enough juniors coming thru so to avoid relegation to a lower division, the go out and promise the world to these players (juniors and seniors)just to not see their club relegated....
your thoughts
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21
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by 21 on Sept 18, 2008 11:40:50 GMT 10
agree with you russellf
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Post by russellf on Sept 18, 2008 11:41:55 GMT 10
Similar plan has just been implemented in WA. For those who don't know, a team names it's top 10 players each year and then second ten as well i think? If one of the top 10 goes to another club, the new club pays the old club $1,500. If it is a second tier player (ie players 11 - 20) they pay $750 I think? In principle it has merit. However our club over here was the first to see it happen. A player from a bottom ranked team wanted to leave their club to play at ours (minor premiers last year). It was in his best interests as he was going to get better development and we had lost our import that played in his position. Despite this player approaching our club, and the fact that the player was planning to play with us for two seasons and then return, our club was still required to pay the $1,500. Keep in mind that in WA there is only State League, there is no div 2 and no relegation. Makes it a different kettle of fish as rebuilding is a lot less difficult if you don't face the threat of relegation. thanks for the update... remember the club will get the money back, or maybe more under SA system, whent he player returns to his previous club... so its like a bond really in that case
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Post by russellf on Sept 18, 2008 11:45:41 GMT 10
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jubba
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by jubba on Sept 18, 2008 11:48:36 GMT 10
I am with DC as long as the player does not owe the club fees they should be free to go where they want.
In the end of the day if a player is happy at a club and the club is in the position to provide them with the opitunity they need they will not leave the club.
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Post by p26 on Sept 18, 2008 11:49:40 GMT 10
BTW, I'm fairly sure in WA the team losing the player can elect to waive the fee if they feel it is appropriate. Ie, if Blackburn lost Irvo for example and recognised that perhaps he wouldn't get a shot in the firsts team there, they could elect to waive the fee for the new club.
Ferg, just realised my post came across as if I didn't agree. I think it would work perfectly in melbourne assuming it was applied with a degree of common sense. Whether this can be relied upon is another matter I guess.
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Post by russellf on Sept 18, 2008 11:55:38 GMT 10
I am with DC as long as the player does not owe the club fees they should be free to go where they want. In the end of the day if a player is happy at a club and the club is in the position to provide them with the opitunity they need they will not leave the club. but a player who has spent a long time in the junior system owes the club more than just his fees... or at least his is what i believe... sure i aggree if they want to play somewhere else then they should be free to do so... i just think it will have alot more benefits upon baseball as a whole... and will make clubs show more judgement when they are recruiting players.... also aggree that the fee should have the option of being waved in certain circumstances
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Post by russellf on Sept 18, 2008 12:05:19 GMT 10
in all honesty its not something that can be achieved over night... but i think a system can be developed where all parties to the transaction can benefit
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Post by dc on Sept 18, 2008 21:25:53 GMT 10
Ferg you're kidding yourself here. Why does time at a club mean that someone should be bound to a club?? And why should the club get compensation if they go? It is RIDICULOUS to suggest that. It's a free country and clubs should be having a look at their own environments if people want to leave. I'd love hear nud*run's opinion on this one - he had a great post yesterday about this very issue. People can want to leave for a variety of reasons and if there is no process that causes bad blood in place than often they will come back if they're not happy or down the track (as nude did with Mulgrave). We wonder why this sport isn't thriving? It's because we have a pennant committee in this state that rules over the sport like a judge and jury. As far as I'm concerned unless they owe money or are juniors, senior players should be able to freely move wherever they want once the club has had a chance to hear their reasons why (at a committee meeting). Any club that can't keep their players needs to look at their club culture... Lets use chelt for an example ferg.... why have so many players been leaving your club in the past few years? Why not look at the reasons behind that.
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Post by russellf on Sept 19, 2008 9:38:18 GMT 10
Ahhhh dc,
if you want to look atchelt then lets look at chelt... we have had far more players come into our club than leave it in the past few years... so i'm not sure what you are talking about... as for your comments on a governing body that makes the rules.... well it is clear that you don't get it... you see without a governing body all the individual clubs are going to vote on rule changes in their own interest rather than in the best interests of baseball as a whole... as such the sport is limited in its growth and we see the stagnation currently present in victoria today because any major changes to structure etc still have to be ratified with the clubs at the P & S meeting...
if you want a prime example of this look at the VFL/AFL before and after the introduction of the independent commission (Andrew Dimetriou and co.). you have a sport that is struggling for competitive balance with almost negative growth and with the rich clubs getting richer and the poor clubs getting poorer under a biased gate revenue sharing arrangement. After however the AFL has seen great improvement in its competitive balance, fan interest, attendance, financial performance of its clubs and growth. do you see the problem now, until we have a functioning independent body that can make decisions, without bias from the clubs, we cannot go to the next level or even hope to compete with the likes of AFL, soccer, cricket etc.
I've already said that i agree players should be allowed to play where they want to play... but i also believe that the sport is in trouble... and i believe that should be made our highest priority rather than ensuring some clubs still have an easy road to recruiting a premiership caliber team each year, whilst showing no regard to the development of the sport.
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Post by jetpilot on Sept 19, 2008 9:44:17 GMT 10
Ahhhh dc, if you want to look atchelt then lets look at chelt... we have had far more players come into our club than leave it in the past few years... I've already said that i agree players should be allowed to play where they want to play... but i also believe that the sport is in trouble... and i believe that should be made our highest priority rather than ensuring some clubs still have an easy road to recruiting a premiership caliber team each year, whilst showing no regard to the development of the sport. Your right Fergy, Lets ban Stenny from baseball, that will fix the winter league easy road to recruiting a premiership.
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Post by russellf on Sept 19, 2008 9:52:51 GMT 10
Ahhhh dc, if you want to look atchelt then lets look at chelt... we have had far more players come into our club than leave it in the past few years... I've already said that i agree players should be allowed to play where they want to play... but i also believe that the sport is in trouble... and i believe that should be made our highest priority rather than ensuring some clubs still have an easy road to recruiting a premiership caliber team each year, whilst showing no regard to the development of the sport. Your right Fergy, Lets ban Stenny from baseball, that will fix the winter league easy road to recruiting a premiership. the definition was "easy road to recruiting a premiership calibur team each year, whilst showing no regard to the development of the sport" .... Cheltenham have more juniors and a better junior program than anyone else in the DBA so they do not fit this definition.... stop trying to stir the pot with the rustlers... this is a serious convesation
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Post by thewholetruth on Sept 19, 2008 10:00:28 GMT 10
you might not agree russ or see it even, but chelt have done exactly whst you are arguing against. even with the best junior program in the dba, mabye even the state they have still paid players to come across to win a flag.
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Post by jetpilot on Sept 19, 2008 10:03:26 GMT 10
you might not agree russ or see it even, but chelt have done exactly whst you are arguing against. even with the best junior program in the dba, mabye even the state they have still paid players to come across to win a flag. There is no point Truth, they all think Santa is real
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Post by russellf on Sept 19, 2008 10:06:18 GMT 10
i'm not arguing against it though.... like i said players still would be able to be paid to play... but the clubs they come from would get something in return as well... this would be worse for the rustlers in winter and better for the rustlers in summer... on a personal level i don't agree with Stenny paying for players... but for those who say we should get rid of him from the sport... i have one statement for them... Stenhouse does more work for the Cheltenham baseball club than just about anyone, from coaching juniors, to odd jobs around the club and organizing functions.... anyone who suggests that we should remove him from the game clearly doesn't have the sports best interests at heart....
not the best junior program in the state that goes to waverly... but second place would be ours...
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Post by russellf on Sept 19, 2008 10:07:29 GMT 10
you might not agree russ or see it even, but chelt have done exactly whst you are arguing against. even with the best junior program in the dba, mabye even the state they have still paid players to come across to win a flag. There is no point Truth, they all think Santa is real jetpilot i am not completely ignorant i know what goes on.... well more or less
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Post by jetpilot on Sept 19, 2008 10:14:59 GMT 10
i'm not arguing against it though.... like i said players still would be able to be paid to play... but the clubs they come from would get something in return as well... this would be worse for the rustlers in winter and better for the rustlers in summer... on a personal level i don't agree with Stenny paying for players... but for those who say we should get rid of him from the sport... i have one statement for them... Stenhouse does more work for the Cheltenham baseball club than just about anyone, from coaching juniors, to odd jobs around the club and organizing functions.... anyone who suggests that we should remove him from the game clearly doesn't have the sports best interests at heart.... not the best junior program in the state that goes to waverly... but second place would be ours... Ferg, Think you'll find i was half joking about sacking Stenny. If you dont agree with him payin blokes put a stop to it? If we had blokes being payed at Dandy there would be a walkout. Then again we finished 3rd & you won the flag. I agree with almost everything you said but as Truth pointed out the things you are arguing for are the exact things that happen at your winter club?
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Post by russellf on Sept 19, 2008 10:25:17 GMT 10
yes and it will make it harder for our club to buy a premiership... i'm cool with that... as for putting a stop to it... what can i do... i have voiced my opinion to David... but you know my family's history... my last name guarantees that i won't play for any other club... i wouldn't be able to look the old man, uncle and grandfather (if he was still here) in the eye... so i can't move clubs and i love playing the game... can't live without it... so no walking out options for me...
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Post by snacks on Sept 19, 2008 10:45:39 GMT 10
This is how simple it is..... Cheltenham have led the way for clubs to do the right thing, they cleared both Blackely's, so that they could continue to play at the standard they should be playing in. These guys will go back there once Chelt are back in Div 1 because they were allowed to leave for their own good. Other clubs have knocked back clearances on lesser players for no reason other than selfishness. What this does is reduce the appeal of the clubs that do not give clearances. If a club goes and buys players, then when they want to leave, there should be absolutely no reason why they would decline it. Why would any player go to a club for money (or something similar) knowing that they will have a monster feat in front of them to get out when they want? ? A lot of people will understand who it is I am talking about, but I dont care. It does more harm than good by not clearing guys. Other than being unfinancial, there is absolutely NO reason not to clear players. If people dont want to play at a club they should not be forced into it by archaic committee members. Nuf said.
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Post by dc on Sept 19, 2008 10:58:57 GMT 10
Ahhhh dc, if you want to look atchelt then lets look at chelt... we have had far more players come into our club than leave it in the past few years... so i'm not sure what you are talking about... as for your comments on a governing body that makes the rules.... well it is clear that you don't get it... you see without a governing body all the individual clubs are going to vote on rule changes in their own interest rather than in the best interests of baseball as a whole... as such the sport is limited in its growth and we see the stagnation currently present in victoria today because any major changes to structure etc still have to be ratified with the clubs at the P & S meeting... if you want a prime example of this look at the VFL/AFL before and after the introduction of the independent commission (Andrew Dimetriou and co.). you have a sport that is struggling for competitive balance with almost negative growth and with the rich clubs getting richer and the poor clubs getting poorer under a biased gate revenue sharing arrangement. After however the AFL has seen great improvement in its competitive balance, fan interest, attendance, financial performance of its clubs and growth. do you see the problem now, until we have a functioning independent body that can make decisions, without bias from the clubs, we cannot go to the next level or even hope to compete with the likes of AFL, soccer, cricket etc. I've already said that i agree players should be allowed to play where they want to play... but i also believe that the sport is in trouble... and i believe that should be made our highest priority rather than ensuring some clubs still have an easy road to recruiting a premiership caliber team each year, whilst showing no regard to the development of the sport. AFL commission? Are you kidding ferg? We're a an Amateur sport whose playing group is made up of people who pay fees to play baseball... let me repeat that PAY FEES TO PLAY BASEBALL. Under no circumstance should a FEE PAYING PLAYER be under any obligation to do anything but what he wants. And more players coming than leaving? We're talking summer here. Granted you have a heap of juniors but Reinke, Blackley, Blackley, Wenke (retired), Steve Gourlay (retired), Mulherin... you've had some quality players jump off in the past few years... and who have you picked up? I agree that the sport needs to grow but I know of more people who have quit because they couldn't get a clearance than have been happy with the whole process? Why should a fee paying player be dragged before an "AFL Comission" to be told that he can't leave the club he is paying to play at..... RIDICULOUS.
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Post by russellf on Sept 19, 2008 11:07:19 GMT 10
still not quite what i'm getting at... i'm not talking about clubs blocking people... although the payment system is going to act as a incentive for the club to clear the player...
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Post by russellf on Sept 19, 2008 11:21:19 GMT 10
Ahhhh dc, if you want to look atchelt then lets look at chelt... we have had far more players come into our club than leave it in the past few years... so i'm not sure what you are talking about... as for your comments on a governing body that makes the rules.... well it is clear that you don't get it... you see without a governing body all the individual clubs are going to vote on rule changes in their own interest rather than in the best interests of baseball as a whole... as such the sport is limited in its growth and we see the stagnation currently present in victoria today because any major changes to structure etc still have to be ratified with the clubs at the P & S meeting... if you want a prime example of this look at the VFL/AFL before and after the introduction of the independent commission (Andrew Dimetriou and co.). you have a sport that is struggling for competitive balance with almost negative growth and with the rich clubs getting richer and the poor clubs getting poorer under a biased gate revenue sharing arrangement. After however the AFL has seen great improvement in its competitive balance, fan interest, attendance, financial performance of its clubs and growth. do you see the problem now, until we have a functioning independent body that can make decisions, without bias from the clubs, we cannot go to the next level or even hope to compete with the likes of AFL, soccer, cricket etc. I've already said that i agree players should be allowed to play where they want to play... but i also believe that the sport is in trouble... and i believe that should be made our highest priority rather than ensuring some clubs still have an easy road to recruiting a premiership caliber team each year, whilst showing no regard to the development of the sport. AFL commission? Are you kidding ferg? We're a an Amateur sport whose playing group is made up of people who pay fees to play baseball... let me repeat that PAY FEES TO PLAY BASEBALL. Under no circumstance should a FEE PAYING PLAYER be under any obligation to do anything but what he wants. And more players coming than leaving? We're talking summer here. Granted you have a heap of juniors but Reinke, Blackley, Blackley, Wenke (retired), Steve Gourlay (retired), Mulherin... you've had some quality players jump off in the past few years... and who have you picked up? I agree that the sport needs to grow but I know of more people who have quit because they couldn't get a clearance than have been happy with the whole process? Why should a fee paying player be dragged before an "AFL Comission" to be told that he can't leave the club he is paying to play at..... RIDICULOUS. if you understand economics champ you'll know that the AFL is virtually unlike any other professional sports league in the world, being that it is member owned and not run for profit... this in simplistic terms means that it is almost identical in its features to an amateur league... therefore its structure can foreseeable work under amateur conditions... As for players leaving Reinke (played one season as assistant coach then back to waverly), Blackley's (gone to waverly because they are out of contract and want the best opportunity to get resigned), Wenke (well he has seen better days - a little overweight), Steve gourlay (has hurt his back - can't do anything about injuries), Mulherin (maybe the only genuine loss - went to moorabin to get signed - gee that worked out well). as for players we've picked up all juniors so i wont bother you with their names... as i keep saying the new system wont stop people from getting a clearence.... they wil still be able to leave if they want... just some remuneration is provided to the club losing the payer... clubs will still have the final say aboout their own players.. where the commission will come in is in regulating the transfer procedure and arbitrating any particularly sensitive cases
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Post by philniekro on Sept 19, 2008 11:41:02 GMT 10
believe at penant meeting last night ( "appeals board" ), 2 junior players from Werribee wanting to develop there baseball skills by going to Waverley were knocked back, but 2 juniors from Williamstown wanting to get cleared to Newport to "better" their baseball, were approved......I believe one of those was the son of a former Aust. player ...anyone else see the double standards happening here......2 unknowns being knocked back and the son of the ABF Junior dev............whoops, may have let the cat out of the bag.........Opens up a can of worms......
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Post by dc on Sept 19, 2008 11:45:18 GMT 10
AFL commission? Are you kidding ferg? We're a an Amateur sport whose playing group is made up of people who pay fees to play baseball... let me repeat that PAY FEES TO PLAY BASEBALL. Under no circumstance should a FEE PAYING PLAYER be under any obligation to do anything but what he wants. And more players coming than leaving? We're talking summer here. Granted you have a heap of juniors but Reinke, Blackley, Blackley, Wenke (retired), Steve Gourlay (retired), Mulherin... you've had some quality players jump off in the past few years... and who have you picked up? I agree that the sport needs to grow but I know of more people who have quit because they couldn't get a clearance than have been happy with the whole process? Why should a fee paying player be dragged before an "AFL Comission" to be told that he can't leave the club he is paying to play at..... RIDICULOUS. if you understand economics champ you'll know that the AFL is virtually unlike any other professional sports league in the world, being that it is member owned and not run for profit... this in simplistic terms means that it is almost identical in its features to an amateur league... therefore its structure can foreseeable work under amateur conditions... As for players leaving Reinke (played one season as assistant coach then back to waverly), Blackley's (gone to waverly because they are out of contract and want the best opportunity to get resigned), Wenke (well he has seen better days - a little overweight), Steve gourlay (has hurt his back - can't do anything about injuries), Mulherin (maybe the only genuine loss - went to moorabin to get signed - gee that worked out well). as for players we've picked up all juniors so i wont bother you with their names... as i keep saying the new system wont stop people from getting a clearence.... they wil still be able to leave if they want... just some remuneration is provided to the club losing the payer... clubs will still have the final say aboout their own players.. where the commission will come in is in regulating the transfer procedure and arbitrating any particularly sensitive cases Ferg... not all clubs are like cheltenham... not all clubs have much money... so WHY should THEY be paying clubs when players want to come to them? We're a struggling sport paying too much for league administration and insurance already.... You look at a sport like soccer which is thriving because they have been able to keep their participation fees low while giving people the freedom to choose and move to their own clubs.
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Post by philniekro on Sept 19, 2008 11:47:37 GMT 10
DC, I can see you not working from my office.......
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Post by homer29 on Sept 19, 2008 11:52:43 GMT 10
Ahhhh dc, if you want to look atchelt then lets look at chelt... we have had far more players come into our club than leave it in the past few years... so i'm not sure what you are talking about... as for your comments on a governing body that makes the rules.... well it is clear that you don't get it... you see without a governing body all the individual clubs are going to vote on rule changes in their own interest rather than in the best interests of baseball as a whole... as such the sport is limited in its growth and we see the stagnation currently present in victoria today because any major changes to structure etc still have to be ratified with the clubs at the P & S meeting... if you want a prime example of this look at the VFL/AFL before and after the introduction of the independent commission (Andrew Dimetriou and co.). you have a sport that is struggling for competitive balance with almost negative growth and with the rich clubs getting richer and the poor clubs getting poorer under a biased gate revenue sharing arrangement. After however the AFL has seen great improvement in its competitive balance, fan interest, attendance, financial performance of its clubs and growth. do you see the problem now, until we have a functioning independent body that can make decisions, without bias from the clubs, we cannot go to the next level or even hope to compete with the likes of AFL, soccer, cricket etc. I've already said that i agree players should be allowed to play where they want to play... but i also believe that the sport is in trouble... and i believe that should be made our highest priority rather than ensuring some clubs still have an easy road to recruiting a premiership caliber team each year, whilst showing no regard to the development of the sport. Well said Fergy, We are never going to get a perfect model, but anything would be better than the archaic system we presently use which has been in place for 80 years probably.
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