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Post by homer29 on Sept 19, 2008 11:54:50 GMT 10
believe at penant meeting last night ( "appeals board" ), 2 junior players from Werribee wanting to develop there baseball skills by going to Waverley were knocked back, but 2 juniors from Williamstown wanting to get cleared to Newport to "better" their baseball, were approved......I believe one of those was the son of a former Aust. player ...anyone else see the double standards happening here......2 unknowns being knocked back and the son of the ABF Junior dev............whoops, may have let the cat out of the bag.........Opens up a can of worms...... Couple of those said juniors have popped up at numerous clubs over the last few years i believe. Played against them in different colours. Also live in the outer west and want to play for an outer eastern suburbs club. Go figure |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2008 11:59:26 GMT 10
Wouldn't be the Shaw brothers from Werribee???
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Post by russellf on Sept 19, 2008 12:19:46 GMT 10
if you understand economics champ you'll know that the AFL is virtually unlike any other professional sports league in the world, being that it is member owned and not run for profit... this in simplistic terms means that it is almost identical in its features to an amateur league... therefore its structure can foreseeable work under amateur conditions... As for players leaving Reinke (played one season as assistant coach then back to waverly), Blackley's (gone to waverly because they are out of contract and want the best opportunity to get resigned), Wenke (well he has seen better days - a little overweight), Steve gourlay (has hurt his back - can't do anything about injuries), Mulherin (maybe the only genuine loss - went to moorabin to get signed - gee that worked out well). as for players we've picked up all juniors so i wont bother you with their names... as i keep saying the new system wont stop people from getting a clearence.... they wil still be able to leave if they want... just some remuneration is provided to the club losing the payer... clubs will still have the final say aboout their own players.. where the commission will come in is in regulating the transfer procedure and arbitrating any particularly sensitive cases Ferg... not all clubs are like cheltenham... not all clubs have much money... so WHY should THEY be paying clubs when players want to come to them? We're a struggling sport paying too much for league administration and insurance already.... You look at a sport like soccer which is thriving because they have been able to keep their participation fees low while giving people the freedom to choose and move to their own clubs. yes not all clubs currently have the money... thats why it encourages them to develop juniors, which lets be honest costs nothing if you want to put i the hard work... they then get money when these kids leave.. its all about creating equality between the clubs... what would end up happening would be the rich clubs would buy players from the small clubs the small clubs then invest the money in facilities so they can increase the potential of their juniors thus making more money when they leave... or else they can use the money to buy in veteran players for similar prices who would be better than the youn kid anyway... For example a 30 yr old and a 20 yr old would cost about the same yet the 30 yr old would still be a better player the price of the 20 yr old would merely reflect the potential he has... trust me it will even things out.... although admittedly this would be ideally coupled with a restructuring of the competition that allows for greater flexibility and playing opportunities for the baseball community |
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Post by homer29 on Sept 19, 2008 12:27:13 GMT 10
Ferg... not all clubs are like cheltenham... not all clubs have much money... so WHY should THEY be paying clubs when players want to come to them? We're a struggling sport paying too much for league administration and insurance already.... You look at a sport like soccer which is thriving because they have been able to keep their participation fees low while giving people the freedom to choose and move to their own clubs. yes not all clubs currently have the money... thats why it encourages them to develop juniors, which lets be honest costs nothing if you want to put i the hard work... they then get money when these kids leave.. its all about creating equality between the clubs... what would end up happening would be the rich clubs would buy players from the small clubs the small clubs then invest the money in facilities so they can increase the potential of their juniors thus making more money when they leave... or else they can use the money to buy in veteran players for similar prices who would be better than the youn kid anyway... For example a 30 yr old and a 20 yr old would cost about the same yet the 30 yr old would still be a better player the price of the 20 yr old would merely reflect the potential he has... trust me it will even things out.... although admittedly this would be ideally coupled with a restructuring of the competition that allows for greater flexibility and playing opportunities for the baseball community for clubs who who are not rich in cash but have an ok playing list, exchanging some players for money would be a great tonic as you say and clubs could rebuild and rejuvenate and as you say Ferg it will even out in the long run. |
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Post by masters on Sept 19, 2008 15:25:41 GMT 10
fourth club in four years must be financial incentives in juniors now maybe the penant meeting got it right
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Post by dc on Sept 19, 2008 15:32:02 GMT 10
Ferg... we are NEVER going to get to a point where amo clubs in this sport have to PAY for a player that wants to come play for them..... it's the most ridiculous Idea I've ever heard.....
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Post by russellf on Sept 21, 2008 11:44:12 GMT 10
Ferg... we are NEVER going to get to a point where amo clubs in this sport have to PAY for a player that wants to come play for them..... it's the most ridiculous Idea I've ever heard..... well you are one person.... thus i don't know how you can speak for the whole sport... the simple fact is that most people that leave clubs get approached and enticed by other clubs... by introducing this system clubs wont go out recruiting players unless they actually believe the player to be worth the money and the club is willing to put forward the money... in all honesty only a few clubs are going to be severely hurt by this scheme whilst the large majority are going to see an enormous benefit... so if you come from one of the few, dc, then i would suggest you put some time into your junior development programs... because change is one the way... maybe not specifically this particular idea... but other changes which will also diminish the recruitment power of clubs |
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Post by kirby34 on Sept 21, 2008 18:35:52 GMT 10
How about this..
Clubs have to submit a list of 15 players at the start of the season and in december there is a trade week where clubs can trade a player/s that arent on the original 15 man list or they can make changes to the list and trade players from the list, kind of like a mid-season draft.
Eg: a player in the seconds who has played really good ball for the first half isnt getting a go in the first and want to play in the 1st, a club may pay for his services for the second half of the year. The player being traded still remians the property of the club that he's coming from and returns there at the end of the seaon.
It allows lower clubs to go for a player they need for the second half to possibly make the finals
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Post by russellf on Sept 21, 2008 19:51:25 GMT 10
How about this.. Clubs have to submit a list of 15 players at the start of the season and in december there is a trade week where clubs can trade a player/s that arent on the original 15 man list or they can make changes to the list and trade players from the list, kind of like a mid-season draft. Eg: a player in the seconds who has played really good ball for the first half isnt getting a go in the first and want to play in the 1st, a club may pay for his services for the second half of the year. The player being traded still remians the property of the club that he's coming from and returns there at the end of the seaon. It allows lower clubs to go for a player they need for the second half to possibly make the finals sorry not sure i understand.... only players that are not on the list may be traded? also probably better to make it open trade season untill first game back after christmas... one week isn't really enough i would say..... |
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Post by 350lifetime on Sept 21, 2008 20:31:32 GMT 10
Don't know of too many guys that would want to jump ship mid season. But you are saying if they do , and they do get a go at the new club they have to go back to original club ?? That is ridiculous.
It's also ridiculous to expect clubs to pay transfer fees. Players move clubs for many reasons. Ask people in SA I think you will find you end up losing alot of participants due this this rule and have people playing where they are not happy and end up not getting the best out of their ability.
Players have a fair chance to move clubs here in Vic , if they are not happy, or have better opportunities to improve elsewhere, or have moved jobs or residence , or they think Chardy is a great bloke. Clubs don't need to fork out more money because a player wants to come over for whatever the reason. This would also cause in house problems that paying players creates.
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Post by russellf on Sept 22, 2008 9:18:11 GMT 10
ahhh but players are already payed so where's the difference at the moment... i pretty sure the majority of player movements occur because of people from other clubs rather than that player selling themselves on the market.... if you are going to be truly honest there is not a lot of difference between the cultures of most clubs... as for people moving house/work.... you could make an allowance to appeal to the VBA or something to waive the fee because of an irreversible change in circumstances that makes playing for current club significantly inconvenient... bring up every conceivable problem you like 350lifetime... i have answers for all of them... your right about not many players would want to jump mid season though... but there may be a few......
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Post by masters on Sept 22, 2008 9:44:06 GMT 10
last time i looked baseball in this state had a profile to rival tenpin bowling and ballroom dancing and now your talking about team rosters midseason drafts transfer fees longer seasons did some russian oil baron pump a few million into our game no its supported by a core group of people be it 3rd, 4th, juniors all the way down to teeball and not just out of work sighed players in div1 with too much time on their hands
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Post by russellf on Sept 22, 2008 10:01:04 GMT 10
hello masters...
good to see someone new on the forum.... however you have to be careful of generalisations like above... a number of firsts players put back into the system and support the development of baseball... A number of them at my club are taking care of the U18s squad this year being both metro and state... the biggest key for the development of baseball is to allow for more games to be played and more flexibility in game times/competitions/etc. however the top level of baseball also needs a revamp, due to its stagnation over the past decade or so... remember those who don't change get lost in History...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2008 10:10:53 GMT 10
So it was the Shaws that were denied clearance the other night?
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Post by bulldurham on Sept 22, 2008 10:22:39 GMT 10
Russellf and Kirby34 you need to take a breath and listen to Masters. You are trying to make a case for change when it is not required. " the biggest key for the development of baseball is to allow for more games" WRONG ! Development starts at the bottom in the junior numbers and clubs and players can't put time into this if they are playing 40 game seasons and holding mid-season drafts."top level baseball needs a revamp due to its stagnation" WRONG ! The last 4 years of Div 1 has produced 4 different Premiers and the number of players going O/S for college or pro ball has snowballed and 4 Victorians in the Majors. I think the game is going alright. You boys need to remember it IS A GAME we play, to enjoy, after we have worked and spent time with our family.
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Post by southside on Sept 22, 2008 11:01:40 GMT 10
ahhh but players are already payed so where's the difference at the moment... i pretty sure the majority of player movements occur because of people from other clubs rather than that player selling themselves on the market.... if you are going to be truly honest there is not a lot of difference between the cultures of most clubs... as for people moving house/work.... you could make an allowance to appeal to the VBA or something to waive the fee because of an irreversible change in circumstances that makes playing for current club significantly inconvenient... bring up every conceivable problem you like 350lifetime... i have answers for all of them... your right about not many players would want to jump mid season though... but there may be a few...... HAAAAANNNNKKKKK... out he comes, out he comes, out he comes to play!!! I've a question for you Hank. Can you do the impossible sit up? I'm sure 350 will show you if you don't know. |
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Post by russellf on Sept 22, 2008 12:58:48 GMT 10
Russellf and Kirby34 you need to take a breath and listen to Masters. You are trying to make a case for change when it is not required. " the biggest key for the development of baseball is to allow for more games" WRONG ! Development starts at the bottom in the junior numbers and clubs and players can't put time into this if they are playing 40 game seasons and holding mid-season drafts."top level baseball needs a revamp due to its stagnation" WRONG ! The last 4 years of Div 1 has produced 4 different Premiers and the number of players going O/S for college or pro ball has snowballed and 4 Victorians in the Majors. I think the game is going alright. You boys need to remember it IS A GAME we play, to enjoy, after we have worked and spent time with our family. more games not only at the top level but right through is the plan... if you dont think baseball has stagnated... well we have the same amount of teams playing that we did in the 70s yet the population has increased.... it may be just a game to some... but to the higher divisions it means a bit more than just that.... |
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Post by russellf on Sept 22, 2008 13:01:24 GMT 10
ahhh but players are already payed so where's the difference at the moment... i pretty sure the majority of player movements occur because of people from other clubs rather than that player selling themselves on the market.... if you are going to be truly honest there is not a lot of difference between the cultures of most clubs... as for people moving house/work.... you could make an allowance to appeal to the VBA or something to waive the fee because of an irreversible change in circumstances that makes playing for current club significantly inconvenient... bring up every conceivable problem you like 350lifetime... i have answers for all of them... your right about not many players would want to jump mid season though... but there may be a few...... HAAAAANNNNKKKKK... out he comes, out he comes, out he comes to play!!! I've a question for you Hank. Can you do the impossible sit up? I'm sure 350 will show you if you don't know. hillarious southside... I know the impossible sit up... that won't work on me as for Hank.... he is taking a bit of a break for a while |
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Post by southside on Sept 22, 2008 13:05:25 GMT 10
I'm a funny guy, just ask me.
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Post by 350lifetime on Sept 22, 2008 15:43:53 GMT 10
ahhh but players are already payed so where's the difference at the moment... i pretty sure the majority of player movements occur because of people from other clubs rather than that player selling themselves on the market.... if you are going to be truly honest there is not a lot of difference between the cultures of most clubs... as for people moving house/work.... you could make an allowance to appeal to the VBA or something to waive the fee because of an irreversible change in circumstances that makes playing for current club significantly inconvenient... bring up every conceivable problem you like 350lifetime... i have answers for all of them... your right about not many players would want to jump mid season though... but there may be a few...... Yes Hank you do have answers for everything, just that alot of your answers aren't that good. The vast majority of clubs in Melb. don't pay players. The majority of player movement is instigated by players who want to change clubs. There is a huge difference in culture from club to club. Now you want to get the appeals board involved to sort out who has to pay a transfer fee and who doesn't. ( ask anyone who has gone thru an appeal process to find how wrong that idea is ) Sounds like it's getting messy already. Not good for baseball. |
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Post by Ace on Sept 22, 2008 23:45:18 GMT 10
Quite a few of you have issue with club paying players...Ferg's idea offers a solution to this issue.
Rather than offering a monetary incentive to a player in return for their jumping ship, the money goes to the club they are leaving. Therefore there is a mutually beneficial exchange - and will result in the smaller clubs receiving money from the bigger clubs, which they can use to develop facilities, or use to keep their subs low.
The only issue is that the system required would be quite complex to ensure that both club and players are not disadvantaged.
The name top 10 and 11 through 20 system has merit. Perhaps a 5 and 10 would be better.
Nevertheless it is an interesting and worthy debate - and one that either side can be supported...
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Post by russellf on Sept 22, 2008 23:49:02 GMT 10
ahhh but players are already payed so where's the difference at the moment... i pretty sure the majority of player movements occur because of people from other clubs rather than that player selling themselves on the market.... if you are going to be truly honest there is not a lot of difference between the cultures of most clubs... as for people moving house/work.... you could make an allowance to appeal to the VBA or something to waive the fee because of an irreversible change in circumstances that makes playing for current club significantly inconvenient... bring up every conceivable problem you like 350lifetime... i have answers for all of them... your right about not many players would want to jump mid season though... but there may be a few...... Yes Hank you do have answers for everything, just that alot of your answers aren't that good. The vast majority of clubs in Melb. don't pay players. The majority of player movement is instigated by players who want to change clubs. There is a huge difference in culture from club to club. Now you want to get the appeals board involved to sort out who has to pay a transfer fee and who doesn't. ( ask anyone who has gone thru an appeal process to find how wrong that idea is ) Sounds like it's getting messy already. Not good for baseball. give me a couple of recent examples of players who moved clubs off their own volition... clubs in melbourne do pay players.... no fees is payment what's the difference in culture? each club has guys who like playing baseball in it... every club has a few bad eggs... but most people in the sport are good blokes the appeals board wouldn;t even have to have a hearing anyways.... they could just make a decision based upon a couple of written representations... one from the player and one from the club... soon enough people would work out what constitutes reasonable circumstances and after that there wouldn't be too much time wasted on the matter fairly good answers i would say... |
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Post by p26 on Sept 23, 2008 0:16:31 GMT 10
I left Moorabbin for a short period of time of my own volition to try get some div 1 experience when moorabbin went down to div 3 about 10 years back. Many young players do this realising that div 3 ball isn't going to give them the experience they need to improve their baseball significantly. Some even leave div 2 clubs if they want to get signed or play claxton shield. Most of them don't need to be chased.
Rutgers left Mulgrave of his own volition as far as I am aware. It may have been to chase money, however I don't think he would have gone to a div 2 club had they offered him a little more than what bonbeach did. It could just be rumour and innuendo but my understanding (from reading the rumour mill) was that was approaching clubs and not the other way around.
Another Blackburn recruit (not mentioning names) has also left his old club (clearance pending) because he wants to ensure he keeps playing div 1 ball while he still can. His choice to leave was not because he was chased. His decision to leave was made prior to any discussions with other clubs.
Clubs in Melbourne do pay players but not all. How many of the three Preston players who are wanting to play div 1 are leaving to get paid would you think? I'd guess none of them. I'd say all of them would have been listed in Preston's protected list and would have required their new club to pay the transfer fee.
What happens if the transfer fee is implemented and the club they wanted to go to said "We'd love to have you play with us and improve your baseball at a higher level, but to be honest, we can't afford you so just stay in div 3 and forget about the opportunity"? Do you think that is a successful system?
What about the example where a player from a div 2 club leaves to coach a div 3 club. A couple of his mates from the div 2 club decide they are getting on a bit and would prefer to go and play under their mate in div 3 and have a bit of fun? The new div 3 club has an opportunity to gain experience and knowledge and help rebuild their squad. The players are happy and the club is happy. If they have to pay transfer fees, suddenly they will more than likely have to say no to this welcome opportunity.
Like I said earlier, it works if you are talking about a league where there is only one division such as a WA or a SA (I think?) as it is a level playing field and the reason of leaving to play at a higher standard doesn't exist. But where you have 3 divisions of differing standards of baseball it becomes an absolute nightmare.
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Post by Ace on Sept 23, 2008 0:29:53 GMT 10
The key is to have the cost at a level that isn't prohibitive, as we are an amateur sport.
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Post by p26 on Sept 23, 2008 0:43:01 GMT 10
If you set it at a standard level for the league then the amount will always be prohibitive for some and a non-issue for others. Unless it was means tested based on the income of the new club. Way too complex to go down that path though.
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Post by russellf on Sept 23, 2008 8:53:46 GMT 10
I left Moorabbin for a short period of time of my own volition to try get some div 1 experience when moorabbin went down to div 3 about 10 years back. Many young players do this realising that div 3 ball isn't going to give them the experience they need to improve their baseball significantly. Some even leave div 2 clubs if they want to get signed or play claxton shield. Most of them don't need to be chased. Rutgers left Mulgrave of his own volition as far as I am aware. It may have been to chase money, however I don't think he would have gone to a div 2 club had they offered him a little more than what bonbeach did. It could just be rumour and innuendo but my understanding (from reading the rumour mill) was that was approaching clubs and not the other way around. Another Blackburn recruit (not mentioning names) has also left his old club (clearance pending) because he wants to ensure he keeps playing div 1 ball while he still can. His choice to leave was not because he was chased. His decision to leave was made prior to any discussions with other clubs. Clubs in Melbourne do pay players but not all. How many of the three Preston players who are wanting to play div 1 are leaving to get paid would you think? I'd guess none of them. I'd say all of them would have been listed in Preston's protected list and would have required their new club to pay the transfer fee. What happens if the transfer fee is implemented and the club they wanted to go to said "We'd love to have you play with us and improve your baseball at a higher level, but to be honest, we can't afford you so just stay in div 3 and forget about the opportunity"? Do you think that is a successful system? What about the example where a player from a div 2 club leaves to coach a div 3 club. A couple of his mates from the div 2 club decide they are getting on a bit and would prefer to go and play under their mate in div 3 and have a bit of fun? The new div 3 club has an opportunity to gain experience and knowledge and help rebuild their squad. The players are happy and the club is happy. If they have to pay transfer fees, suddenly they will more than likely have to say no to this welcome opportunity. Like I said earlier, it works if you are talking about a league where there is only one division such as a WA or a SA (I think?) as it is a level playing field and the reason of leaving to play at a higher standard doesn't exist. But where you have 3 divisions of differing standards of baseball it becomes an absolute nightmare. quick question about the Preston guys? dont really know why they are leaving none of them should be getting a game in a div one line-up. i think they would struggle to get a game in my clubs line up. |
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Post by russellf on Sept 23, 2008 9:09:53 GMT 10
rutgers had people in his ear over summer... he played with the current head coach remember.. you cant say the proposition never came up...
Blackburn recruit... if i know who you are talking about they don't look like getting the clearance... besides that particular player only went to his current club for the money... so he is hardly an exemplary test candidate... but under this arrangement the club would get some payment from blacky.. and the clearance would probably go through....
don't you think preston whould get some reward for the effort they have put into these players...
well do you think it is a successful system whereby a club loses players to div 1 and can never re build properly or in any reasonsable amount of time
coaching is different... exempt clause would apply.. for position of club coach etc. but probably not assistant coaches... or maybe assistant coaches limited to one per team... remember if they stay at the club they are at then they still can help develop baseball at that club... also if they are getting on in years their transfer fee will likely not be much... if they are over 35 then it would be 0...
as for your comments about league structure.... well i wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see a complete elimination of the division structure in the coming years...
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Post by snacks on Sept 23, 2008 9:41:24 GMT 10
Fergalicious!
I think you a fighting an uphill battle champ.
I think this can be ended very simply. Both Blackley's have/are leaving you to go back into Div 1. They have been at Chelt forever and will come back (probably) when you guys get back up to Div 1 this year.
A good mate of mine just got a clearance to go back to Div 1 but he wont be coming back. Don't blame him either.
If a player has a good reason to leave, then not too many committee's will deny their clearance.
There is already too much money floating around the league, no need to add more at a club to club level.
sorry bud.
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Post by southside on Sept 23, 2008 9:51:44 GMT 10
ferg, when did you change clubs last?
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Post by southside on Sept 23, 2008 10:00:02 GMT 10
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