Charter Baseball

[justadad]

Obviously a lot of changes to junior baseball coming this season. Still doesn't seem to be as clear as it should be given we are getting closer and closer to the start of the season.  

I've had as many people tell me it will mean more baseball as I've had tell me it will mean less baseball.  Based on what I've read it definitely looks like it will be less baseball for our U/12 and U/14 kids.  This couldn't be right could it?  I thought it was a generally accepted fact that our kids don't play enough baseball.  Surely our state body is not looking to implement something that reduces this even further.

Last season my boy, for the full season, trained 1 night a week, played 1 game on a Friday night (charter game) and 1 game on a Sunday morning (state league).  Now as I understand it there will be 1 night of training and 1 charter game a week for the full season however the charter vs charter games (pretty much the replacement for the state league), if he makes it, will only be for a couple of months pre-Xmas for U/14 and a couple of months post- Xmas for U/12.  What do the U/14's do after Xmas and the U/12's pre Xmas?  Am I missing something?

Less games at more cost is they way it seems at the moment.  Surely that can't be right.

[Deleted]

Love a passionate parent. Good on you.
Sorry I don't have an answer but you raise some interesting questions. Only junior stuff ive noticed is the Melbourne Institute of Baseball

[larry42]

In short, yes less games than last year for those kids who were playing Sunday baseball as well as Friday Charter.

Academy for each age group runs 10 games. 10 games!!

Maybe its a less is more principle??

[pirates]

but you can pay $420 for your child to be part of the charter academy to be held on Saturdays over 9 weeks, if your child is selected as having the ability. only 24 places per charter.
have heard that one of the planed road trip info nights to explain the program brought up some interesting outcomes for some clubs and charters. some not so happy, maybe someone can fill in the gaps.

[justadad]

Jun 29, 2015 12:54:30 GMT 10 larry42 said:

Maybe its a less is more principle??

Obviously not when it comes to the cost. 

[cheltballer]

That seems to be the jist of what is happening. As the charter co-ordinator at our club, I am waiting for the roadshow to happen. It is supposed to be soon.

My understanding is the Friday night games will now move to Sunday. There will be the charter academy costing $420 of which the best 24 players are selected. Given my son was just at Nationals, I'm reasonably confident he will make the charter Academy squad. the squad of 24 is then broken into 2 teams and will compete against the other charter academies in a 10 game tournament. Now I'm not sure if that will be over a number of weeks or whether it is over a weekend. Does this tournament replace the current state titles?

Based on games played last year to this year, it will mean less games played yet the theory is that we need more competitive baseball. I don't see how playing charter baseball will make the players better, we found more improvement comes form playing the best club teams (ie. State league) and charter baseball bored our better players.

[justadad]

Makes you wonder. I can see how charter baseball can work but not if it's being used to reduce the number of games kids play. It should be used as a means to increase the number of quality games our kids are playing.

I can't see what my boy will get out of it. He's at a club that has very well credentialed coaches already. Just seems like there will be less opportunity for him to play.

I don't want him sitting at home playing video games. Now with a gap to fill we may need to look at what basketball offers that can fill that gap. Hope he doesn't decide he likes basketball better than baseball. I'd much prefer he stick with baseball.

[Goblin]

The current Charter baseball setup (last season) dumbed down the competition.

The proposed Charter baseball will still be a dumbed down competition with the only difference that BV are going to basically sub-contract (read this as for $'s), the running of the Charters at those age groups to the Charter groups themselves.

The current Sunday comp gives the players the chance of playing the best players across the WHOLE competition. Now they will be just playing against Stevie from just up the road.

Last season we just had the one price of club registration that covered all (for LL and JL), whether they played Friday or Sunday only or they played both.

So, anyone that want to play both will have to pay an extra $430. Plus, they will play less games than last season, give me a break.

[Deleted]

Is this a BV initiative or has this come down from ABF?

[justadad]

Jun 29, 2015 18:01:40 GMT 10 @darkness33 said:

Is this a BV initiative or has this come down from ABF?

Can't be something handed down by ABF.  It's not the way it's being done in other states. No national body in their right mind would mandate a structure that results in less games.  My guess is this is BV's attempt to align to the national guidelines / pathway but with their own spin on it.  It could still align with more games.

[justadad]

The problem of only playing "Stevie from just up the road" in a dumbed down competition is not a problem unique to charter baseball in Victoria. Little League baseball in the US has the same challenge in a lot of places. Participation rules and the way they select teams often leaves kids (or their parents) looking for more. It's what has contributed to the rise of travel teams in the US as an alternative to LL baseball. The problem BV could be exposing itself to is that the alternatives from a baseball perspective in Victoria / Australia are non existent. The alternatives for our kids are made up of other sports e.g. soccer, cricket, basketball etc.

[doubleplay]

I might be wrong, but it appears that less cost more and as a parent if I was going through this new system, I would be fairly sure my son would be playing cricket and encouraged to do so at what basically would only cost in todays climate about $100.00 for the season still allowing him to play both juniors and seniors. Quite frankly, this new proposal just goes to show how far behind all the other states Victoria is and just how badly administered Baseball in Victoria is in the Summer Leagues.
And what is worse, it costs you more for the privilege of playing less.
That really is forward thinking.
Good luck to those parent now having to go through this situation.

[Deleted]

Wow! I really love this game and will always follow it no matter what. But how could the board in Victoria get it so wrong and why?

Serious question - What is it going to take to improve baseball in Victoria?

[doubleplay]

Mr. Chiefwahoo. It is as obvious as the end of your nose. A complete overhaul of the whole of Victorian Baseball and get rid of the overpaid deadwood by streamlining the Admin Dept. Make Baseball affordable for the average person and stop thinking that this is an elite sport. It ranks out of the top ten in elite sports in Australia. Even Water Polo ranks higher. Maybe it is about time that the Clubs looked at the bigger picture instead of looking after their own backyards and took a collective interest in bettering baseball in Victoria as a whole. It seems to start at very junior level where it appears that as a state we are miles behind every other state at present in the terms of development.

[linemarker]

I may have missed the full story but how will this increase the amount of junior players playing the game

[russelledwards]

My dismay at the direction of Junior Baseball in Victoria has been in evidence through this Forum over the last few years. Being in Canberra now, I haven't worried about getting myself across the Charter Baseball format but the cost structure is interesting.
Posts indicate $420 per player and 12 players per Charter to play 9 games. The cost per Team is therefore $5000 per Team. Playing 9 games gives a cost per game, per Team of $550. Two Teams playing per Game gives a cost PER GAME of $1100.
Be interesting to know the justification/budget for charging $1100 for a game of baseball.

[Deleted]

Thanks Doubleplay. Miles behind is an understatement mate. Its a shame, a real shame. So how do we spill the board. Or cant that be done?

[doubleplay]

Mr. Chiefwahoo, normally a vote of no confidence would do it, but not so sure in todays climate as the board seems to be appointed and not voted for(but don't quote there). I think for a spill to happen, it would take a great deal of realistic thinking and a progressive group of people to make it happen. I still think that the clubs should have a louder say in what happens in Victoria before baseball falls of the map.
Also, I do think that the ABF have a large hand in the problem somewhere but the current BV at present are presenting a very weak front and a lack of cahonnies in trying to fix the problem rather than keep compounding the problem that is apparent as then wart at the end of the BV nose. All this charter has done is recede Junior Baseball in Victoria back a few more steps and trying to increase revenue for less baseball for the so called junior elite whose parents must have direct line to the Bank Manager so that that little Johnny can play.
Good luck, but I just don't see how this is going to improve that state of Junior Baseball in the future.

[larry42]

Where to start..brief form.

Baseball Australia in their wisdom decided not long ago to move junior baseball in this country to Charter Baseball and adopt the US method. Months of research went in to this decision which the board adopted and that then has been filtered down to the State Associations.

At the moment the application of the Charter model is different state to state - as long as you are utilising the Charter model all seems good though to BA and LL International.

Charter baseball was adopted in Victoria late in the off season last year which left a lot of clubs with a messy start to their junior seasons.

This year there are more significant changes to the system and the application of leagues, etc.
Friday night Charter now moves to Sunday morning.
Charters are now going to each have an Academy for each age group (LL and JL). The rise of the Academy Program essentially kills off the old Sunday State league and Metro competitions.
The Academy is run in to separate sessions with junior league run first leading in to the State Champs with a 10 game season (Oct-Dec) then the Little League after that (Dec-March) LL state Champs in April. BV select and appoint Coaches for each Academy (must apply to BV) Coaches must be Level 3 and will get paid.
BV will also appoint a casual Development officer for each charter, also having to apply on line to BV. This person is meant to be the link to get in to schools in the Charter and work back with the charter committee and each club. Again, $'s.
So $420 for each child playing Charter covers coaches, development people, juniors umpiring and other assorted costs. This money doesn't cover your club costs so if they are playing both Academy and Club it will be more than $420.
U16 now to be known as senior league. This will most likely move to Charter based competition next summer. 18's or soon to be Big League will also most likely move this way in the near future.

Junior Baseball in this state needs an injection, no doubt. Our lower levels have really dropped off in both numbers and talent level. Its a battle to get kids to the club and then its a battle to retain them as well. Schools don't make it easy anymore, sporting culture has changed that more parents want shorter, easier options. We have a sport that as an early entry program is a joke. We get killed by Auskick, In to Cricket, plus soccer and tennis becoming higher demands in schools. What do we serve up - Aussie Tball and now Tball Smash. Please!

Our LL numbers and level is down. We don't have kids with arm strength in comparison to other states. This has stood out like dog balls for the last couple of years as the LL Champs. We look like a group that plays 15-20 games per year instead of approx. 40-50 that other states are. What do we do this year though, we go backwards to 10! But those kids in that Program will have better coaching than what they do at their clubs as they have a Level 3 coach so their standard will improve.

Cost is interesting. Massive spike in costs for kids to play and be a part of the Academy Programs compared with club baseball from previous years. User sure does pay. The fact that the JL bats also change in September 1 this year due to BA's new bat ruling it will make cost at that age group significant. I reckon I'd be looking at approx. $900 - $1000 just to get my kid on the field this year and with a new bat. This has not even caused any ripples of concern when discussed with BV a few times, none at all.

Good luck to all those who are administering their Programs. I get a sense that BV know that there will be a short term fall out of some level but believe that medium to longer term is where the investment will be. I happen to hate the fact that there are any backward steps.

[larry42]

Jun 30, 2015 8:55:00 GMT 10 russelledwards said:

My dismay at the direction of Junior Baseball in Victoria has been in evidence through this Forum over the last few years. Being in Canberra now, I haven't worried about getting myself across the Charter Baseball format but the cost structure is interesting.
Posts indicate $420 per player and 12 players per Charter to play 9 games. The cost per Team is therefore $5000 per Team. Playing 9 games gives a cost per game, per Team of $550. Two Teams playing per Game gives a cost PER GAME of $1100.
Be interesting to know the justification/budget for charging $1100 for a game of baseball.

Russ - its 24 Junior Leaguers first split in to 2 teams of 12. (Oct-Dec) as a lead in to State Champs. Then the same for Little League (Dec-March). So 48 kids paying $420 which covers Coaches, Development Manager, Umpires, Uniforms....

[doubleplay]

Very well compiled Larry, my maths isn't a high point for me but by my reckoning, if the sums work out, it is about $100.00 a game. That really does smack the volunteer coach at Club level in the mouth who gives up his time to teach the team he coaches. Having a level 3 bit of paper doesn't make it right, all it means he can read a book and answer questions, it doesn't mean he can coach. Besides, where are these coaches going to appear from, the same coaches that have been doing it on a volunteer basis already, so that kills the better coaching theory.
All it is, is another BV thingy and bull story. We are just trying to make it a sport for those who can afford to throw money away.

[izzygunna]

State Representative Baseball just about gone.

Cost to play Charter $430 and Club membership plus ABF costs and Insurance- expensive to say the least.

Charter coaches, probably ex pros looking for an earner.

Who suffers, the kids that play the game.

To do all this things must be crook (really broken).

I still haven't figured out why this is better, can any body fill me in.

[wyatt33]

They haven't honestly given us a decent excuse at the p&s meetings. This will even impact on the big clubs. It's just wrong, and there's been zero consultation with the clubs on this one.

[regg44]

Where does the kid who just wants to play for fun fit into this new scheme?

[larry42]

Jul 1, 2015 7:58:40 GMT 10 wyatt33 said:

They haven't honestly given us a decent excuse at the p&s meetings. This will even impact on the big clubs. It's just wrong, and there's been zero consultation with the clubs on this one.

This will even impact the bigger clubs. Well I know of one big club that lost almost 30 kids from baseball when it moved to charter last year at the LL and JL level. No real concern from anyone except those within the club. That's out of the game and lost to the sport.

Lets remember that this is essentially a product and pathway ratified by Baseball Australia and its Board. After exhaustive research (I think I read that somewhere once) this pathway was adopted through the Board and the BOC at BA. This is the LL International brand and like a pied piper its meant to be bringing kids in their hordes to play baseball that aren't already playing.

How State Associations can apply this differently is beyond me though. We have a National Curriculum - why cant we have a National standard with how baseball is implemented. Still struggling with that fact.

The early entry program has been underwhelming since I can remember. Grant Weir's Golden Arm Program wasn't given any shelf life to succeed but I know that we got some really good feedback from kids when this was first in many years ago. Aussie TeeBall and now TeeBall Smash just haven't taken much hold here in Victoria. Will be interesting to see how the newly formed position on Casual Development Manager within each of the Charters will go in establishing contact with schools in the Charter. Applications closed for these positions yesterday and BV appointed across the Charters. These positions could be filled from people from outside the sport or from within baseball as a whole or within the Charter. I believe the Early Entry Program is the key to Victoria getting back in to the race, with the understanding this wont turn around overnight.

According to people who know though (because of extensive consultation) the fact that individual clubs start losing their identity at junior ranks wont happen.
Its also fine for some kids to be playing less games as they will be coached by a higher level of coach. Apparently feedback is that there aren't many good junior coaches in this state!
And its also fine that people will now pay more than double for the priveledge - more than double! How many people who have boots on the ground and are involved with Programs do they consult with - zero.

I'm a pretty passionate baseball person as I come from a passionate baseball family. Rightly or wrongly, I think this is a temporary slap in the face to those involved and coaching within club junior ranks. Feedback is there are not many good junior coaches and the Academy Coach now oversees all LL and JL kids. Clubs start losing control of their kids and that's only my opinion.

[larry42]

Jul 1, 2015 8:56:34 GMT 10 regg44 said:

Where does the kid who just wants to play for fun fit into this new scheme?

They play for their club charter team on a sunday morning against other club teams from within their charter.

[wyatt33]

Over $500 to play less than 20 games....it makes no sense.

[doubleplay]

Reading Larry's well informed passage, this charter is designed for about five or six clubs that can fulfill the charter requirements. That really is increasing the people playing baseball(not). That gives approx 144 kids a chance to play elite level if you are lucky to be picked. As for the other 3 or 400 kids, sorry kids your not up to scratch, go and play sandlot ball. Just where is the encouragement to get kids to play.
I might be reading this all wrong, but it just ain't adding up to increasing participation at the bottom level.

[mc15]

Jul 1, 2015 8:56:34 GMT 10 regg44 said:

Where does the kid who just wants to play for fun fit into this new scheme?

Spot on Regg. This is kids baseball, NOT elite baseball

[Deleted]

On a sidenote to this topic - does that mean now that the Junior Criteria is now scrapped for Senior Promotion/Relegation?