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Post by larry42 on Jul 2, 2015 9:49:42 GMT 10
On a sidenote to this topic - does that mean now that the Junior Criteria is now scrapped for Senior Promotion/Relegation? Nothing as yet.
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Post by larry42 on Jul 2, 2015 10:01:22 GMT 10
Reading Larry's well informed passage, this charter is designed for about five or six clubs that can fulfill the charter requirements. That really is increasing the people playing baseball(not). That gives approx 144 kids a chance to play elite level if you are lucky to be picked. As for the other 3 or 400 kids, sorry kids your not up to scratch, go and play sandlot ball. Just where is the encouragement to get kids to play. I might be reading this all wrong, but it just ain't adding up to increasing participation at the bottom level. DP - 5 metro charters in Yarra rangers, Rays, Western Mets, Southern mariners and Northern Diamondbacks. Sundraysia the other Charter who have competed at State Champs in recent years as well. All Charters have their domestic competition which is to be played on a sunday morning. Lower level domestic games. Example - in the Yarra Rangers Charter last year we had 5 Waverley teams and 3 Berwick teams. These teams played each other over the course of a low level domestic season. The Academy will see hopefully 48 kids per Charter play in the Academy so at the peak it should be 240 kids playing Academy Baseball. (that's $100k generated btw) That doesn't include Sunraysia. One thing that is interesting is that in recent years Under 12 or LL as they are now started the season from the get go with players able to play 2 gam,es per week. This doesn't happen this year until the Academy starts which will be in December, 2 months after the domestic season begins.
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Post by doubleplay on Jul 2, 2015 12:31:57 GMT 10
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is it going to be duck or a duck egg for junior baseball involvement at a lower level. It sounds like a case of those who have the haves and those who have the have nots. Now here is the biggy, who controls the Charters, the clubs who implement it or BV appoint the regions.
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Post by infieldfly on Jul 2, 2015 20:12:27 GMT 10
Congrats to BV as everyone agrees we need a change.
Great to see a way to pay our hard working charter coaches something, develop coaching depth in charter clubs, introduce junior umpiring, have money to get someone into schools and recruit more players.
Kids get more quality coaching, the better kids play more against the better kids and how good would it be if a group of Melbourne Little Leaguers won the nationals and played in the LL World Series in the US. The boost would be amazing! It should be our goal for next year.
No stopping clubs organising more games if they want.
Soccer charges upwards of $1000 for academies, other sports have them and charge, our sport just playing catch up here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 7:05:01 GMT 10
Congrats to BV as everyone agrees we need a change. Great to see a way to pay our hard working charter coaches something, develop coaching depth in charter clubs, introduce junior umpiring, have money to get someone into schools and recruit more players. Kids get more quality coaching, the better kids play more against the better kids and how good would it be if a group of Melbourne Little Leaguers won the nationals and played in the LL World Series in the US. The boost would be amazing! It should be our goal for next year. No stopping clubs organising more games if they want. Soccer charges upwards of $1000 for academies, other sports have them and charge, our sport just playing catch up here. Yer fair call ^^
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Post by larry42 on Jul 3, 2015 9:02:49 GMT 10
Congrats to BV as everyone agrees we need a change. Great to see a way to pay our hard working charter coaches something, develop coaching depth in charter clubs, introduce junior umpiring, have money to get someone into schools and recruit more players. Kids get more quality coaching, the better kids play more against the better kids and how good would it be if a group of Melbourne Little Leaguers won the nationals and played in the LL World Series in the US. The boost would be amazing! It should be our goal for next year. No stopping clubs organising more games if they want. Soccer charges upwards of $1000 for academies, other sports have them and charge, our sport just playing catch up here. Infield fly, good first post. Obviously know what's going on or have been in one of the Charter Road shows of late. Our junior program definitely needs something. We have fallen a long way behind WA and NSW especially. This could very well be it when it gains some ground in a few years, and this wont be a one year turn around. I like the idea of having U16 and U18 kids umpiring junior games, and the success will depend on its application. The hard working Charter coaches are great no doubt, been involved with a few ot them myself. Would think that the majority of them will be the same from previous years so we probably wont be getting those higher level coaches that BV have in mind just yet. Just becomes a higher user pays for these kids I guess. I would have thought that baseball as a whole could cover the cost for development managers going in to schools. The goal for Baseball Victoria should be to improve dramatically the implementation of the early entry program in to schools so we can get more kids playing the game. We need a fresh and innovative stand. We need more kids playing to assist these Charters and Academies moving forward. As much as a Vic team winning a National title and travelling to the US would be a boost and terrific for baseball in this State, it aint going to happen in the next few years with the low pool of kids coming through. Numbers and talent. This is a 5-6 year project that's starts now and the most important people in this turn around will be those who can forge relationships with schools and get kids to Clubs within Charters. They should be paid the big $s and this should come from baseball as a whole. If the goal is to win a national title so a team can go to the US then we are focussed on the wrong thing. Playing catch up with who? Do we compare with soccer, football, cricket, basketball? How many games and training sessions for those soccer academies? I reserve judgment for when I see full numbers. High level junior basketball bout the same as Baseball Acadmies this year but over 35 games for a 10 month season. I could probably deal with baseball making it more expensive if it was escalated over a 2-3 year period rather than a one year hit of well over double the cost, especially at Junior League level in which a high amount of families will need to purchase new bats with the change of BA's bat rule effective September 1st. BBCOR bats in.
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Post by Reggie on Jul 3, 2015 13:08:15 GMT 10
What happens to the Elite kids who's parents cant justify $500-1000 bucks a season? Stiff nuts,Piss off. Lost to baseball forever or just play Sunday Charter and thrash other kids till they give up too.
And justadad my son has picked basketball over baseball and now I'm stuck coaching it. Its a horror I cannot put into words.
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Post by Goblin on Jul 3, 2015 15:39:44 GMT 10
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Post by zombie on Jul 3, 2015 15:53:58 GMT 10
as a parent of a LL player, I can tell you first hand that the costs of having a kid who's side made the LL nationals amounts to around $2500 for the summer season, state champs & nationals Throw in the cost of a new bat, time off work & costs to travel & stay at the nationals, baseball ain't a cheap sport! I'm lucky, I only have one kid who plays at that level
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Post by larry42 on Jul 3, 2015 15:57:23 GMT 10
I thought those positions closed June 30 Goblin? Volunteer positions given an Honorarium + that honorarium is dependant on how many kids play Academy.
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Post by wyatt33 on Jul 3, 2015 15:59:58 GMT 10
Maybe bv and the charters can look at approaching imports that come here to take on these roles? Aces players probably can't due to weekend games on the road, but it might suit a club import to take on these types of roles. Just sayin...
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Post by Goblin on Jul 3, 2015 16:12:16 GMT 10
I thought those positions closed June 30 Goblin? Volunteer positions given an Honorarium + that honorarium is dependent on how many kids play Academy. Unfortunately I have no idea of when acceptances are required. I was only given these today to post on our club website.
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Post by larry42 on Jul 3, 2015 16:20:35 GMT 10
I thought those positions closed June 30 Goblin? Volunteer positions given an Honorarium + that honorarium is dependent on how many kids play Academy. Unfortunately I have no idea of when acceptances are required. I was only given these today to post on our club website. Tuesday June 30th going by the Baseball Victoria website advert.
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Post by Goblin on Jul 3, 2015 16:41:20 GMT 10
Unfortunately I have no idea of when acceptances are required. I was only given these today to post on our club website. Tuesday June 30th going by the Baseball Victoria website advert. Silly me as I went to the BV Summer Website to find info about the Summer season and there is jack about the proposed Junior Summer situation.
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Post by mc15 on Jul 3, 2015 17:50:12 GMT 10
What happens to the Elite kids who's parents cant justify $500-1000 bucks a season? Stiff nuts,Piss off. Lost to baseball forever or just play Sunday Charter and thrash other kids till they give up too. And justadad my son has picked basketball over baseball and now I'm stuck coaching it. Its a horror I cannot put into words. As a starting point, kids at this age are not elite. They are developmental
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Post by perfeckt on Jul 3, 2015 23:15:09 GMT 10
I think that I remember that 2 or 3 years ago The focus was going to be on kids joining up to play baseball and older folk as well. Inclusion. I took that as meaning we need to accommodate the greater percentile that have no wish to work toward elite status. Just bring them in and allow the fun factor to happen. The majority. If we increase the amount of kids and families involved then simple mathematics tells us that the percentage of those with higher aspirations will grow as well. The cost of representing in a higher league have always been a burden to parents and I believe that if it had of been a greater burden than my family could have bourne then my driven child would have had to take a back seat. I've whinged over the years about cost and my perceived lack of support from a variety of governing bodies but in the end it comes down to, IS IT FUN? FOR THE KID? I'm just going to pluck a figure out of my 4rse but let's say that it might be .001% of a chance, at best for the kid that wants to, to reach elite level let alone the Majors. What happens to the elite kids? We won't know unless we make it fun at an amateur club level first.
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Post by mc15 on Jul 4, 2015 8:07:13 GMT 10
Perfectly said perfeckt
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Post by rebelwithoutaclue on Jul 6, 2015 9:50:32 GMT 10
The charter system looks like a fantastic setup for a sport that is prospering and can start to focus on high level development for those with the ability and the dollars. i.e. Soccer at the moment.
Baseball is simply not in this situation - playing numbers (real playing numbers) have dropped off over the last decade or so. What is needed is a focus and structure to promote participation. Junior items which should come before $400+ for 10 games: - Coach pitch/pitching machine league - Older-age T ball - School league - Social league (game by game payment, teams randomised)
From comments above it seems that charters will only play Sunday mornings as well. Which means if you are unavailable Sunday mornings (Church/Parent custody/etc), you do not play baseball. By limiting the availability, you are restricting access to the sport. (same story for men between 18-38 yo)
And finally, move U16s/U18s away from mornings!
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Post by wyatt33 on Jul 6, 2015 10:38:31 GMT 10
Are you suggesting that under 16's and especially u18's play on Friday night, or even a Wednesday night? What an incredibly ingenuitive idea...coming from a club administrator no less....funny these great ideas aren't coming from sports house.
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Post by cheltballer on Jul 6, 2015 15:59:14 GMT 10
We are having our charter meeting with BV tonight, so that should be interesting. The thing that is confusing me still is there will be 24 kids selected to participate In the charter development that play Saturday mornings, who will be training at some stage during the week and then they play on Sunday mornings, so I see 2 trainings a week plus 2 games. When it gets closer to the state tournament, they then need to trial for that all-star team which means another session to fit in, or does this Academy replace the state titles? From my understanding, the reason we are moving to charters like we are is because Little league International have mandated that if we direct entry into the LLWS, we need to have a charter type set-up. however as baseball is club based in Australia, it makes it even more difficult. America don't play club baseball like we do and therefore there charter teams are club based like us. Each charter will have appointed a Charter Co-ordinator who is to go around all the schools promoting the charter. I am terrified of this as knowing full well, whichever club gets their preferred person into this role will most likely get all the players. This person cannot be affiliated to a club in the charter. Our club has 3 LL coaches all of which are Level 3 qualified, so our players get pretty good coaching, however, The Mariners coaching they got was still another level up, because at a charter level, you have players of different abilities, whereas the mariners coaches had the best of the best, so you can have a more intensive training session. My boy hates playing the Charter games as they get bored and played better in the Sunday State competition, so the academy will be good, but then what happens with his cricket?
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Post by cheltballer on Jul 6, 2015 16:01:40 GMT 10
Are you suggesting that under 16's and especially u18's play on Friday night, or even a Wednesday night? What an incredibly ingenuitive idea...coming from a club administrator no less....funny these great ideas aren't coming from sports house. We will lose again by playing these age groups on Friday evenings, as a lot of them have part-time jobs.
We need BV to spend a massive amount of capital to ensure each club/ground has lights that you can play under and then play charter games mid week as well. Play mid week charter then academy on Sunday morning. Saturday mornings are for the mainstream sports.
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Post by wyatt33 on Jul 7, 2015 8:44:55 GMT 10
Are you suggesting that under 16's and especially u18's play on Friday night, or even a Wednesday night? What an incredibly ingenuitive idea...coming from a club administrator no less....funny these great ideas aren't coming from sports house. We will lose again by playing these age groups on Friday evenings, as a lot of them have part-time jobs.
We need BV to spend a massive amount of capital to ensure each club/ground has lights that you can play under and then play charter games mid week as well. Play mid week charter then academy on Sunday morning. Saturday mornings are for the mainstream sports.
Not at all. What's the difference with masters baseball? They fit games in every Monday night at grounds across melbourne that don't have lights. I just think it's harder to get kids that age thinking about baseball when they've been out the night before chasing girls(or boys) and possibly imbibing in alcohol and other things kids do these days. All I'm saying I find we lose more kids to the early Sunday times lot than say a wed or thursday night. I wouldn't think we'd lose as many kids to work shifts as what some might see as laziness. I know I'm over getting up at birdsfart every second Sunday morning to open up a canteen and stock dimmies and hotdogs, and lock the door on the way out at about 9 pm that night after the seniors have wound up festivities.
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Post by cheltballer on Jul 7, 2015 9:47:29 GMT 10
Well I thought we had a good productive meeting last night.
The main things is the Friday Night baseball doesn't have to move to a Sunday, it can stay as whatever the committee chooses to do. For some charters, the Friday nights were extremely difficult with a lot of travelling, however with the Mariners, our charter clubs are relatively close to each other, so the traveling isn't as much an issue for us.
Yes, they may play approx. 4 less games a year, however with an extended period of Academy training at a higher output, I believe our players will gain significantly from this. Yes, it will cost more, so it then comes down to parents belief if hey will get value for money.
I would like to see the Intermediate ball introduced for those on the cusp. It would give the top age LL players the ability to play against the bottom aged JL players and still maintain their LL All-star qualification.
All in all, I thought it was a good meeting & positive outcome.
Bring on Summer. I'm sick of the cold
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Post by larry42 on Jul 7, 2015 12:31:53 GMT 10
Well I thought we had a good productive meeting last night. The main things is the Friday Night baseball doesn't have to move to a Sunday, it can stay as whatever the committee chooses to do. For some charters, the Friday nights were extremely difficult with a lot of travelling, however with the Mariners, our charter clubs are relatively close to each other, so the traveling isn't as much an issue for us. Yes, they may play approx. 4 less games a year, however with an extended period of Academy training at a higher output, I believe our players will gain significantly from this. Yes, it will cost more, so it then comes down to parents belief if hey will get value for money. I would like to see the Intermediate ball introduced for those on the cusp. It would give the top age LL players the ability to play against the bottom aged JL players and still maintain their LL All-star qualification. All in all, I thought it was a good meeting & positive outcome. Bring on Summer. I'm sick of the cold Can you define higher output? Is that better coaching, better level of games.
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Post by cheltballer on Jul 7, 2015 16:22:20 GMT 10
Yes by Higher output I mean better coaching with better players therefore the quality of the coaching should be better and the players get more out of it.
It is frustrating some of the better players when training with minors players as their skill level isn't at the same yet, whereas with the Academy, they will be training with kids of similar ability and can focus on higher level drills.
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Post by bigbluball on Jul 8, 2015 19:47:37 GMT 10
So does that mean with BV moving from Albert park back to Altona, the game will be a little cheaper?
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Post by mchilcott on Jul 9, 2015 9:35:55 GMT 10
Are you suggesting that under 16's and especially u18's play on Friday night, or even a Wednesday night? What an incredibly ingenuitive idea...coming from a club administrator no less....funny these great ideas aren't coming from sports house. Has anybody ever entertained the idea of playing the u18's as a third senior team? I think local Footy has it right, play all three games (18's, Reserves, Seniors) one after the other at the same ground - could even squeeze the 16's in before the 18's if BV were willing, although this would be pushing it.
8.45 - 10.30am - U16 (1hr 45) 11 - 12.45 - U18 (1hr 45) 1.15 - 3.15 - Reserves (2hr) 3.45+ - Seniors (9in)
Shortening junior games by 15min I wouldn't think would make much of a difference as majority would play in a later game also? Having these four games at the same ground would be a huge money maker for the home clubs and would probably lead to more people sticking around for the day/drawing crowds. Also would attack the morning issue with kids as the U18 level I believe would be the area where kids would start to get sick of the early starts.
I also like the idea of these being played on a Saturday, leaving the Sundays open for the Charter games. I may have missed something as I've been out of the game for nearly three years, but I feel like this would have kept a few more players over the last decade or so?
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Post by larry42 on Jul 9, 2015 12:00:00 GMT 10
Congrats to BV as everyone agrees we need a change. Great to see a way to pay our hard working charter coaches something, develop coaching depth in charter clubs, introduce junior umpiring, have money to get someone into schools and recruit more players. Kids get more quality coaching, the better kids play more against the better kids and how good would it be if a group of Melbourne Little Leaguers won the nationals and played in the LL World Series in the US. The boost would be amazing! It should be our goal for next year. No stopping clubs organising more games if they want. Soccer charges upwards of $1000 for academies, other sports have them and charge, our sport just playing catch up here. IFF - when you say everyone does that denote everyone involved in junior baseball, everyone on this forum or everyone that was consulted'? I agree that junior baseball in this State needed/needs reinvigoration. What would have been great for those involved in putting this Charter stuff together would have been a program that was delivered from the start that wasn't so half a***d in its preparation and delivery. It was messy last year and fully admitted to by the administration. But that had big consequences on the application of junior baseball last year. It has consequences on the retention of kids playing the game, certainly within my Charter. That was a fact. Forward to the now and the application is still messy even with a full season under our belts and a few months of off season. I like the concept of a few things within the new Charter Structure. Like the idea of working on having juniors umpiring as we all know there is a deficiency in this department. Like the idea of a development officer going in to schools and this is the #1 position where the person/people should be reimbursed. This cost though shouldn't be borne by just the Academy kids though, it should be borne by Baseball as a whole. I understand the comparative costing against other sports. Ive done research as well. Are our volunteer coaches undervalued - yes. Are people who go in to schools undervalued - yes. Should baseball and the new academies which are untried and untested have kids pay well over double the costs from last year - hell no. How is that going to assist us with the principle of Retaining players? The aim for all clubs, all charters and all of baseball should be to get more kids in to the sport. get them in, get them hooked and loving the experience. We need more kids playing the sport from TeeBall up. I'm at one of the bigger D1 clubs and are lower aged numbers are at an all time low. Lets reinvigorate the early entry program. This needs to be the key and the focus. The aim isn't on having one of our LL teams win through to go to Williamsport. That would just be a by product of a very good system. I heard a BV member use the term 'playing catch up' the other day. Do we do that all in one year?
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buff04
Junior Member
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Post by buff04 on Jul 24, 2015 12:40:36 GMT 10
I just noticed a gaping hole in this model. The Academy kids have to pay the extra fees to pay for the coach and development officer. The development officer's main role is to help promote the game and get extra kids playing. So BV is outsourcing their responsibility to promote the game and getting the parents of the better players to subsidise it. It seems that BV is looking at this as a very short sighted way to gouge more revenue now which is the wrong way to look at it. As the temporary custodians of Victorian Baseball the BV admin should be looking at the recruitment of Junior baseballers as an investment in the future of baseball that will pay dividends for years to come. And allocating resources accordingly
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Post by pirates on Jul 25, 2015 8:00:42 GMT 10
comments about concentrating on kids being signed is just out of wack with what should be the leagues game plan.
More kids at all skill levels should be the goal which will in the end uncover standout players. The need to fund jobs has taken precedents in a vale of elite user pays groups to secure major league contracts ? or sending 1 team, maybe, to US to play some tournament. Does anyone else put the fact that the ABF have had a funding cut of some $450,000 just happens to coincide with the rush to push the charter groups system through. might be being cynical. each state we have funding cuts to its elite programs, that seem to only require part time positions, that clearly have under performed in Victoria.
Major cuts to the Australian coaches who actually make a difference on the field but no cuts in admin jobs that don't produce anything is just not right. I don't know about other states but we seem (are) to be poorly managed and all we hear is get ready for a small increase in fees.
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