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Post by eckersley43 on Nov 19, 2012 20:26:42 GMT 10
Wako and aueagle make a good point relative to travel. Mitchell Majors in the MWBL IS a longer drive timewise than Geelong from the Eastern Suburbs (have done both) It's not as if the extended travel is every second week.As for needing a motel and associated expenses to visit Geelong?? maybe the horse and buggy is alive and well!
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Post by wyatt33 on Nov 20, 2012 6:18:21 GMT 10
First of all, geelong's existence in the summer league has been a part of baseball as long as I can remember. And there were a few mornings I had to venture down there for a junior game myself. I'm not going to say its ideal, but it's life. What I'm sick of hearing is how hard country folk have because of travel. If you live in ballarat your closer to Geelong than I am, but that doesn't matter. And for anyone to doubt my involvement in baseball, and harden up, need to realize what i actually do for my baseball club from Monday to Sunday. And masters, you need to come up with something better than that. You used that last time, and it didn't work then either.
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Post by oldmanriver on Nov 20, 2012 7:19:42 GMT 10
Travelling isn't a real issue at all. Just sitting on the porch last night after the masters game, a thought popped into the fogged memory, whay not if possible align the 16's and 18's with whatever division the senior side is in and if and where possible, if say Cheltenham travels to Geelong, then all four senior sides travel along with the 16's and 18's and then it is a full day, without the possibility of having people motoring up and down the freeway going to two different venues on the same day. Just a thought.
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Post by gj on Nov 20, 2012 7:53:54 GMT 10
The point here Wyatt, is us country folk don't whinge about the travelling. What we are sick of hearing is how hard you have it because you have to travel right into the heart of the country - Geelong - once in a while. Toughen up Princess.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 20, 2012 8:13:34 GMT 10
OMR, solid idea... the problem is that not all clubs that compete in senior divisions have the same junior structures (not all have 18's or 16's), and the quality of senior clubs is not always reflected by junior teams (although this year's Major League divisions is pretty reflective of D1).
Would be much better than the weekends when our boys are scheduled in Berwick/UFTG/Doncaster/etc in the morning and have to be back in G-Town for an afternoon game!
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Post by wako on Nov 20, 2012 8:20:23 GMT 10
First of all, geelong's existence in the summer league has been a part of baseball as long as I can remember. And there were a few mornings I had to venture down there for a junior game myself. I'm not going to say its ideal, but it's life. What I'm sick of hearing is how hard country folk have because of travel. If you live in ballarat your closer to Geelong than I am, but that doesn't matter. And for anyone to doubt my involvement in baseball, and harden up, need to realize what i actually do for my baseball club from Monday to Sunday. And masters, you need to come up with something better than that. You used that last time, and it didn't work then either. Show me where someone from "the country" complained here about travel with respect to fixturing or complained of it inconveniencing them. I did say it was illogical to have two teams from west of the CBD (Geelong and Sunshine) play midweek at La Trobe, but nobody complained about the idea of travelling to La Trobe itself. You're right, Ballarat is closer to Geelong than Mulgrave, Dingley, Dandenong or wherever you live. And Koo Wee Rup is closer to Dandenong than Werribee, what's your point?
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Post by wako on Nov 20, 2012 8:35:37 GMT 10
OMR, it would indeed be a great idea if it could be made to work. It could theoretically be made to work by aligning junior and senior divisions and regionalising any clubs that cannot meet the criteria required to do so, but probably wouldn't work with the competition in its current state as there are too many clubs too good at senior level to drop out of D1/2 but not enough junior players to fit in a D1/2 under that kind of structure.
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Post by wyatt33 on Nov 20, 2012 9:30:23 GMT 10
Plenty of folk are saying that country folk don't complain about it. That's a complaint! I case anyone was wondering I couldn't give a flying you know what, how far someone travels from the country to play baseball. And I wasn't particularly worried about travelling to Geelong. My initial comment was that I thought they'd divided the city into east and west for juniors other than the major leagues. Now if calling one a princess because I'm not particularly jumping out of my skin to get from Ferntree gully to waurn ponds by 8 am with 3 kids under 9 for three hours of baseball, to then bundle everyone back in the car to travel back to wherever I'll be playing at 1.00pm.....well call me a princess! But I'm over hearing how tough the country folk are because they do travel. I bet at times it gives them the nutss, and there would be moments where they don't want to do it. GUARANTEE IT!
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Post by larry42 on Nov 20, 2012 9:30:33 GMT 10
Eagle- has a BV study been done with junior parents to get a grasp of their thoughts on travelling, junior game days, etc? Or are any of the surveys completed only ever go through the clubs direct? It would be an interesting read.
Not sure wher i would stand on regionalisation but would certainly be open to it if the long term structure was right. Currently i prefer the ability for my team (and i'm only talking about 12's here) to travel to what ever club is in our division to test ourselves against the 9 other best junior teams in that age group for that season. Travel doesn't come in to the equation for me, but thats me and i do understand that there are coaches/parents out there who hate the thought of getting in their cars on a sunday morning and travelling from one side of the city to the other. Regionalisation would change that process, maybe for good of some and not others. Can we measure how much of an impact it would have on recruiting new players to the game, new parents happy to only travel as far as 15-20 mins, rather than 40-60 mins on occasion. For me, i would rather have my team play against the best competition regardless of where. And for the record we have a Feb game scheduled down at sleepy hollow which we have penciled in once the re draw was done, and looking forward to it because it should be a cracker o a game against the young baycats.
When i was running the program at Port Melb a couple of years ago and the changes to the qualifying rounds came in, it was initially a tough sell to the parents having to travel out of the confines of port Phillip an surrounds, to make a trek down to berwick or over to Preston. But what they did find was that rather than getting touched up by the localish clubs by 25 or 30, they could deal with the travel and play a competitive 2 hour game of baseball. for the travel its worth it. Yes it can be an inconvenience, yes it can cost more in petrol or citylink, but IMO, the competitive game which can be played the majority of the weeks is worth the sacrifice.
And baseball and cricket are not the only sports that have issues with travelling. My son is playing his first year of competitve club basketball which play on a friday night which can be games anywhere from Ballarat, Frankston, etc. But if you make the commitment, you deal with what comes with it.
The end of the qualifying rounds won't see the end of some junior drubbings and there were a few of them handed out over the 4 age groups of the weekend. What they do see, is the end of the match ups that just shouldn't happen when you have teams winning by 30+. A strong A team playing weak B teams. Those games just dont suit anyone and can be dangerous for the B team having missiles flying around their scones. The qualifying rounds do set up AAA and AA groupings pretty well though, with a couple of mis matches in there but i reckon that will happen NO matter what the structure or fixturing is.
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Post by wyatt33 on Nov 20, 2012 9:32:46 GMT 10
Wako, it's illogical for mulgrave to play Chelsea or berwick at altona.....but it bloody happens, so what's your point?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 9:34:03 GMT 10
The so called tyranny of distance is an issue and to deny this is 'head in the sand stuff'.
There is no doubting that parents dont encourage their kids to play junior ball when they see that they have to get up at sparrows fart on a Sunday morning to get to games and that is a FACT !
Personally I love travelling once or twice a year to Geelong, Ballarat, Mitchell Major or wherever.
In fact having come up with the regional idea and running it by BV a couple years ago for Masters (given its Monday nights and peak hour traffic) I see good sense in regionalising games BUT (2 years later) I also miss playing against blokes that I love (or love to hate :-)) that play out South and East, and being in the North/West Div on Sundays and Mondays now sees games and faces that are becoming way too familiar now in playing the same blokes over and over again.
So, to try and come up with the happy meduim Id suggest a concept where you (ideally) play every team in a broader all encompassing Division ONCE and the teams in your region TWICE (te reduced travel times).
Or as Pirates suggested you play an expanded and elongated cross-over finals series that sarts after Christmas after playing all teams in your region once.
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Post by larry42 on Nov 20, 2012 9:51:48 GMT 10
The so called tyranny of distance is an issue and to deny this is 'head in the sand stuff'. There is no doubting that parents dont encourage their kids to play junior ball when they see that they have to get up at sparrows fart on a Sunday morning to get to games and that is a FACT ! Personally I love travelling once or twice a year to Geelong, Ballarat, Mitchell Major or wherever. In fact having come up with the regional idea and running it by BV a couple years ago for Masters (given its Monday nights and peak hour traffic) I see good sense in regionalising games BUT (2 years later) I also miss playing against blokes that I love (or love to hate :-)) that play out South and East, and being in the North/West Div on Sundays and Mondays now sees games and faces that are becoming way too familiar now in playing the same blokes over and over again. So, to try and come up with the happy meduim Id suggest a concept where you (ideally) play every team in a broader all encompassing Division ONCE and the teams in your region TWICE (te reduced travel times). Or as Pirates suggested you play an expanded and elongated cross-over finals series that sarts after Christmas after playing all teams in your region once. Wouldn't think anyone is denying that distance is a factor Authentic, as is cost, as is time constraints, as is other sporting interests. A percentage of people involved will deal with it because of the chance of playing competitive baseball, while others won't. Who do we as a sport cater for?
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Post by wako on Nov 20, 2012 10:04:47 GMT 10
Wako, it's illogical for mulgrave to play Chelsea or berwick at altona.....but it bloody happens, so what's your point? ...and that's illogical too, if there's a suitable ground that's available and closer to both clubs. The fact that I don't call out something in particular as illogical doesn't necessarily mean I think it's logical. I also neglected to say that the notion of a lottery ticket with "lucky numbers" is illogical, as is the superstition of not stepping on the lines when entering/leaving the field of play in a changeover, as is...etc.
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Post by The Puma on Nov 20, 2012 10:16:36 GMT 10
I saw someone step on the line once. It wasn't pretty...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 11:25:46 GMT 10
Wouldn't think anyone is denying that distance is a factor Authentic, as is cost, as is time constraints, as is other sporting interests. A percentage of people involved will deal with it because of the chance of playing competitive baseball, while others won't. Who do we as a sport cater for? I guess if we want to grow the sport then we should look at catering to the group of kids/families that walk away after having played T-Ball at their local centre (which is the perfect way to nurture the initial interest). It would be fascinating to look at the stats (if available) as to how many kids drop off from the local T-Ball season to travelling on Sunday mornings the next year (and why).
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Post by wako on Nov 20, 2012 11:47:30 GMT 10
Wouldn't think anyone is denying that distance is a factor Authentic, as is cost, as is time constraints, as is other sporting interests. A percentage of people involved will deal with it because of the chance of playing competitive baseball, while others won't. Who do we as a sport cater for? I guess if we want to grow the sport then we should look at catering to the group of kids/families that walk away after having played T-Ball at their local centre (which is the perfect way to nurture the initial interest). It would be fascinating to look at the stats (if available) as to how many kids drop off from the local T-Ball season to travelling on Sunday mornings the next year (and why). Indeed. It would also be interesting to see if Preston (or any other club with a sizeable T-Ball or other "pre-competitive baseball" program) had enough kids not going on to Sunday morning play but still interested in playing baseball for a Friday evening team. A North East Friday night centre would probably be ideal (as opposed to just East), in Preston's case, of course.
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Post by oldmanriver on Nov 20, 2012 11:53:27 GMT 10
Just going on past experiences with Junior Baseball and Cricket. Friday nights for the T Ball and U/11 cricket is ideal for families as it is the end of the working week and a chance to relax watching the little darlings run around. Once you go to Sunday mornings or Saturday mornings the parental involvement starts to drop off. Then comes the biggy, travel, sorry son, time to look at other interests or start relying on other people to cart the boy/girl around. It would be interesting to find out from kids not playing anymore as to their reasoning. A bit of a task but should make interesting reading as to what sort of planning could be done for the future.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 20, 2012 14:00:50 GMT 10
I have no doubt that travel associated with playing in the Vic Summer League is a disincentive for many players. In Geelong, we've conducted no surveys and have no statistical evidence to prove more players would play if there was less travel... no need to go that in-depth. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but Geelong offers a regionalised competition during the winter (I'm pretty sure Melbourne also offers a regionalised competition, as do most other regions of Victoria). Even with a decline in the the numbers playing winter baseball in Geelong, there would still be 4-5 times more players playing in the GBA than for the Baycats. I would suggest this would be mirrored in most regional areas around Victoria, although paradoxically, in Geelong over the last decade the numbers in the summer have grown while those in the winter have declined. But, in general, travel means less players. I feel like perhaps I haven't made this point just yet, but my argument has never been that travel doesn't impact the numbers in the Vic Summer League, but that we already have structured competitions in Victoria to cater to those that don't want to travel to play in a better competition. Many here are arguing that if the travel is a disincentive, then we lose that person to the sport... but only if you disregard the opportunity that person still has to play during the winter. From my experience in Geelong, those that decide not to play summer baseball because of the travel... and yes, there has been many over the years... still involve themselves in the winter competition... some for many, many years. Again from my experience, it is the players transitioning from juniors to seniors that are likely to leave due to travel (shifting priorities, independant budgets, job requirements, etc)... parents of juniors, while not thrilled with the prospect, accept the travel as part providing a quality experience for their children... and let's not forget the incentive of Lil' Johnny making a Vic team to encourage parents to go the hard yards for their kid. How do I know they accept it??? Because they continue to do it... if they didn't accept it, they wouldn't do it. As it seems many here are either forgetting the winter competitions or not wanting to include their role in our sport, can I assume those arguing the merits of regional competitions in the summer are also suggesting this overhaul should be combined with the dissolution of winter baseball in Victoria? Perhaps this is where I'm missing the point... is the concept to regionalise summer baseball, including advanced playoff stuctures and even tournaments throughout the year, and dissolve winter competitions to provide players, coaches and exhausted administrators a legitimate off-season where they can recharge? This is a concept I can see myself supporting... kudos to those now pushing this idea.
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Post by 3up3down on Nov 20, 2012 19:44:41 GMT 10
ah the Puma and Wyatt show..not far from one another!!! stay close boys u need it
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 22:12:51 GMT 10
As far as the VWBL goes where U15s (and younger players) are split into two sections (namley Diamond Valley where there are plenty of Winter Clubs) and the rest (out East) I'd suggest that one highly redeeming aspect to Winter ball for kids 15 or under (and their parents) out our way is that it is (in the case of DV) played at a 'Centre' (Mill Park last year - Banyule Flats the years prior) where there are multiple grounds and the parents can go each week regardless of the opponent.
I cant imagine a parent on a bitterly cold and wet Saturday morning being very keen on the idea of travelling too far away across town only to sit in the car waiting to see if the rain clears or the ice on the park turns to dew.
I guess what I am saying is that perhaps we consider catering for the younger groups (like we do in Winter) by making the game more accessible/local and parents more able/prepared to 'commit' by centralising/regionalising the competition for all kids aged up to say 14.
And when little Johnny has turned 15+ (and has possibly committed to the sport) we ask him and his parents to be prepared to travel a bit to play the level appropriate to his capability and that of his mates ?
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Post by oldmanriver on Nov 21, 2012 6:36:59 GMT 10
I suggest that we have a forum (maybe a luxurious weekend at the MBP carpark) and actually sit down and openly discuss, formulate and finally propose ideas for consideration by BV for Junior gradings. I am sure with a few slabs of the amber thinking liquid and a good barbie we can all come up with at least one good idea that we could all agree on.
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Post by The Puma on Nov 21, 2012 6:48:01 GMT 10
ah the Puma and Wyatt show..not far from one another!!! stay close boys u need it Life must be tough being so much better than everyone else.
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Post by wrongway25 on Nov 21, 2012 10:27:45 GMT 10
Funny how this has evolved into a discussion about travel.
We already have juniors (and parents) driving up to an hour to get to home games. I'm sure they enjoy having more of a sleep in where possible but on a whole they have never complained about travel.
I'm also not aware of BV being involved in the decision to close the Citylink tunnels last weekend so won't complain about a little inconvenience there.
PS last year we had the road trip to Geelong and made it an overnighter, mostly just to have the team dinner the night before and enjoy a few coldies as parents. We are disappointed as a group not to have a Geelong trip this year.
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Post by dirtyword on Nov 21, 2012 11:37:55 GMT 10
Funny how this has evolved into a discussion about travel. We already have juniors (and parents) driving up to an hour to get to home games. I'm sure they enjoy having more of a sleep in where possible but on a whole they have never complained about travel. I'm also not aware of BV being involved in the decision to close the Citylink tunnels last weekend so won't complain about a little inconvenience there. PS last year we had the road trip to Geelong and made it an overnighter, mostly just to have the team dinner the night before and enjoy a few coldies as parents. We are disappointed as a group not to have a Geelong trip this year. I wasn't complaining about citylink closure and BV... I don't need to know who my kids team is playing in the last round... Get the first round of the season proper sorted first and get it up straight away and THEN work through the rest of the draw. Give us as much time as possible to plan our immediate sunday/weekend, whether its due to family commitments, other sporting commitments, work commitments. It's not always easy juggling all those things, a little bit of common sense when BV does these things would be appreciated.
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Post by larry42 on Nov 21, 2012 12:05:32 GMT 10
Maybe its me but i fail to see how an extra day or two for people/clubs/teams to know where they were playing is such a big issue. BV are d**ned if they do and if they dont sometimes. We got the full fixture when it came out which meant no double handling to clubs and i'm sure in this day and age of technology people can be told pretty quick.
Games were going to be at 9am somewhere in melbourne....or Geelong.
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Post by oldmanriver on Nov 21, 2012 12:54:13 GMT 10
Larry, I think it must only be you. But this problem is a dead duck, the draw is out, everyone is playing, travel is good, baseball is good and get to sit in the passenger seat to Geelong on the 9th. Unfortunately, Larry, some people(How dare they) actually put the family first. Especially if you have daughters. Not evetrybody can fit around the BV draw. But that is also a dead duck
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Post by dirtyword on Nov 21, 2012 13:10:59 GMT 10
Maybe its me but i fail to see how an extra day or two for people/clubs/teams to know where they were playing is such a big issue. BV are d**ned if they do and if they dont sometimes. We got the full fixture when it came out which meant no double handling to clubs and i'm sure in this day and age of technology people can be told pretty quick. Games were going to be at 9am somewhere in melbourne....or Geelong. Working - parent had a Sunday afternoon shift, good luck trying to swap shifts on Friday morning (finding out 1st game location Thursday night, such as I did) Family - family lunch planned weeks prior, good luck rearranging that... Sport - other kids or parents have another sport that day, limited time to organise rides etc Wasn't hard was it Larry? Took me a few seconds to come up with those. And bear in mind I had none of those inconveniences, but I'm sure there were a number who did. BV have been doing this long enough that they should have some procedures in place that they can monitor, assess and improve based on feedback such as mine. Just because it didn't affect you doesn't make it irrelevant.
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Post by larry42 on Nov 21, 2012 14:01:02 GMT 10
Maybe its me but i fail to see how an extra day or two for people/clubs/teams to know where they were playing is such a big issue. BV are d**ned if they do and if they dont sometimes. We got the full fixture when it came out which meant no double handling to clubs and i'm sure in this day and age of technology people can be told pretty quick. Games were going to be at 9am somewhere in melbourne....or Geelong. Working - parent had a Sunday afternoon shift, good luck trying to swap shifts on Friday morning (finding out 1st game location Thursday night, such as I did) Family - family lunch planned weeks prior, good luck rearranging that... Sport - other kids or parents have another sport that day, limited time to organise rides etc Wasn't hard was it Larry? Took me a few seconds to come up with those. And bear in mind I had none of those inconveniences, but I'm sure there were a number who did. BV have been doing this long enough that they should have some procedures in place that they can monitor, assess and improve based on feedback such as mine. Just because it didn't affect you doesn't make it irrelevant. Who's to say it didn't affect me and my family and plans for sunday afternoon. Easy for people to get on and give to BV on a number of issues. Sometimes its unwarranted, and i believe the extra day in getting things sorted is fair enough, your reasons withstanding.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 21, 2012 14:16:54 GMT 10
Is OMR suggesting that anyone that happily accepts the need to travel as part of their involvement in State League baseball is not a good family person? That their choice is inconsiderate of other family members that might not play baseball?
I think I best have a chat to my parents... after 10 years of carting me around Victoria, at times with younger sister and brother in tow, I think it's about time I informed them of just how selfish and inconsiderate they were. How dare they.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 21, 2012 14:36:49 GMT 10
dirtyword, while I appreciate your make believe inconveniences must have been bothersome for those imaginary souls who had to deal with them, I expected most people would have planned for not knowing the location of that one game when the qualifying draw was released two months prior and it was known that would be the first week of the re-draw.
Two months out, and I know the redraw is that weekend...
- Change my shift at work, or begin making arrangements for Lil' Eagle to catch a ride with a teammate. - Organise family lunch for another weekend, or begin making arrangements for Lil' Eagle to catch a ride with a teammate. - Plan for the worst case and make arrangements for my other kids to get a ride to their sport, or begin making arrangements for Lil' Eagle to catch a ride with a teammate.
Keeping in mind, we're talking about one weekend out of the season, I guess I expect adults to be capable of forward planning and adaptability.
And besides, why are you so sure any of these issues were encountered by others? They didn't impact you, I imagine because you're adaptable and you planned.
Has anyone posted on here that due to the amount of time they had to plan, their child missed out on playing baseball that weekend? If not, can we assume people made adequate plans and were able to get their son/daughter to baseball?
While I understand that if you haven't organised a competition as large as the summer league junior section it must be hard to understand the amount of work that goes into producing the draws, I assure you that BV are not sitting in the office holding on to the draws just long enough to inconvenience everyone.
Determining who plays who is not what actually holds up the process... its ensuring once fixtures are set that fields will be available to suit the fixture as is... fields are limited and if availability doesn't suit, changes need to be made, often having a flow on effect to games in other age groups.
Add to this requests from teams who believe they will be uncompetitive and request a change, and it becomes quite a task. Having sat in the BV office while this is being done, I can tell you its tiresome and mundane, but the BV staff are working as quickly as they can.
Please don't get me wrong, I don't think BV are perfect and I'm the first one to tell them if I think warranted, but on the issue of fixturing, I have seen to difficulty of this task first hand.
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