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Post by oldmanriver on Nov 16, 2012 11:30:34 GMT 10
Seeing what they call an even draw(tongue in cheek), I doubt that it would be a mistake.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 16, 2012 13:10:03 GMT 10
OMR, your repeated slagging off of BV is becoming mundane... whatever it is that's made you so spiteful, I hope you can recover and move on.
FYI... the Waverley v Chelt game at Werribee was an error and is currently being corrected...
FYI... as much as I sure the admin staff at BV would love nothing more than sitting on their hands while you and the missus fret over what your doing Sunday morning, the reason for the delay was the request of several clubs to move teams from where they had qualified... considering the demands, particulary by you, for BV to listen to what the clubs wanted, the requests were assessed and approved... unfortunately, this process takes time.
Tough for BV to win when you're hellbent on making them the pariah. Some would think the idiot is he who spouts off without having full knowledge of which he speaks.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 16, 2012 13:13:14 GMT 10
Just had a look and the fixture is up. It's under regular season fixtures. Got a trip out to essendon this Sunday, and a pre Xmas trip to Geelong........23rd dec.......ripper! Lucky Geelong is no more than a two hour drive from the farthest reaches of Melbourne... should get you home in time for Santa!
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Post by oldmanriver on Nov 16, 2012 13:28:32 GMT 10
Eagle, what is the point of having grading games if the clubs don't like where they finish and go cap in hand begging to be moved to a more appropriate grade. Defeats the bloody purpose of having 6 weeks of grading games. Besides it is not spitefulness but not being to accept the mundane stupidity of what BV is trying to do with Junior Baseball. Once again, why have these ridiculous grading games if what you say is correct. Go figure.
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Post by dirtyword on Nov 16, 2012 14:23:27 GMT 10
OMR, your repeated slagging off of BV is becoming mundane... whatever it is that's made you so spiteful, I hope you can recover and move on. FYI... the Waverley v Chelt game at Werribee was an error and is currently being corrected... FYI... as much as I sure the admin staff at BV would love nothing more than sitting on their hands while you and the missus fret over what your doing Sunday morning, the reason for the delay was the request of several clubs to move teams from where they had qualified... considering the demands, particulary by you, for BV to listen to what the clubs wanted, the requests were assessed and approved... unfortunately, this process takes time. Tough for BV to win when you're hellbent on making them the pariah. Some would think the idiot is he who spouts off without having full knowledge of which he speaks. Eagle, can it be suggested that those organising the draws to maybe get just the first round locked in and posted ASAP, so ppl can at least plan things. Especially helpful when ppl have to travel across toll roads that are closed Sunday morning. Ie Berwick to Geelong or werribee and vice versa.
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Post by wyatt33 on Nov 16, 2012 15:02:58 GMT 10
Just had a look and the fixture is up. It's under regular season fixtures. Got a trip out to essendon this Sunday, and a pre Xmas trip to Geelong........23rd dec.......ripper! Lucky Geelong is no more than a two hour drive from the farthest reaches of Melbourne... should get you home in time for Santa! Got an aunt living in barwon heads so were gonna make it a weekend, but I am flabbergasted were playing a game that close to Xmas! Surely coming back a week earlier in the new year is better than that. I won't complain about the travel but when your heading to Geelong 2 days before Xmas, what's I going to be like to get accommodation down there at that time of year?
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Post by wako on Nov 16, 2012 15:22:45 GMT 10
OMR, your repeated slagging off of BV is becoming mundane... whatever it is that's made you so spiteful, I hope you can recover and move on. FYI... the Waverley v Chelt game at Werribee was an error and is currently being corrected... FYI... as much as I sure the admin staff at BV would love nothing more than sitting on their hands while you and the missus fret over what your doing Sunday morning, the reason for the delay was the request of several clubs to move teams from where they had qualified... considering the demands, particulary by you, for BV to listen to what the clubs wanted, the requests were assessed and approved... unfortunately, this process takes time. Tough for BV to win when you're hellbent on making them the pariah. Some would think the idiot is he who spouts off without having full knowledge of which he speaks. Eagle, can it be suggested that those organising the draws to maybe get just the first round locked in and posted ASAP, so ppl can at least plan things. Especially helpful when ppl have to travel across toll roads that are closed Sunday morning. Ie Berwick to Geelong or werribee and vice versa. You can't lock the first round in until all the teams are locked in, which was the reason for delay.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2012 15:40:42 GMT 10
Which goes to OMR's point - if clubs can negotiate movement AFTER grading games then why are there grading games in the first place (thats not a question for you btw Wako :-)) ?
PS: And if you are printing off fixtures to hand out on the weekend make sure they are current ... you can tell by the 'date/time last modified' stamp thereon .... ohhh sorry no you cant tell if its changed since you printed, unless you check it line by friggin line !
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Post by oldmanriver on Nov 16, 2012 15:43:36 GMT 10
I have a question, why have grading games if they don't mean a dam? I am very open minded and will accept answers that make sense. Playing grading games then allowing clubs to move from where they qualified . Just makes a mockery of the rules laid out at the start of the qualifying period. The ladders are known by Sunday night, allowing for no applied applications the draw should have been out no later than Tuesday. Then why accept application for team movement. You either played the qualifying games properly or you held back., or you where in a division that wasn't up to scratch. End of rant.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 16, 2012 16:34:29 GMT 10
As I'm not writing with the expressed consent of BV or the SLC, I'm not prepared to publish specifics of how many teams, which teams, or why... I will note however, across all age groups and all the teams that participated in the qualifying rounds, the number that have requested alterations were few... Regardless of how many, even one requires us to consider the request and understand the impact on the competition, which takes time.
Considering the demands of most on this forum for BV to be aware of the imbalance in the competition and to pay attention to clubs opinions of their own abilities, I'm unsure why there is now criticism for doing so... should those teams asking to be moved been left in divisions where they were at a perceived advantage/disadvantage?
Additionally, the SLC included a clause in the rules this year to allow for teams to be moved following qualification if, in the judgement of the SLC, the team was better served in an alternate division... nothing has been done outside the guidelines set at the beginning of the season.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 16, 2012 16:36:51 GMT 10
This isn't the first time I've heard a Melbournian state they would turn a drive to Geelong into a weekend away... is it honest perceived as that far away? Geelong players drive back and forth every other week (sometimes twice a week) for baseball... I couldn't imagine any of them saying they need to stay in Melbourne for the weekend to justify the drive?
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Post by wako on Nov 16, 2012 18:20:38 GMT 10
This isn't the first time I've heard a Melbournian state they would turn a drive to Geelong into a weekend away... is it honest perceived as that far away? Geelong players drive back and forth every other week (sometimes twice a week) for baseball... I couldn't imagine any of them saying they need to stay in Melbourne for the weekend to justify the drive? It reminds me of a saying, "Geelong to Melbourne takes one hour, Melbourne to Geelong takes five hours" If this perception results in more tourism income for Geelong, I'm all for it (provided, of course, those bloody tourists don't clog up my roads/restaurants/car parks/etc....just kidding ) I might consider staying overnight if I were playing the late game of a midweek doubleheader at La Trobe, as I recall you had to in recent years, Nate (against Sunshine of all clubs, another west-side club..wtf?)
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 16, 2012 18:44:09 GMT 10
Wako, still home before 12:30am, so still not worth a hotel room!
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 16, 2012 18:51:20 GMT 10
Are people's lives really so jam-packed that the inconvenience of 'only' 60 hours notice regarding the location of your children's junior games creates so much chaos and concern for your entire family that you must publicly pillory those running the game?
Is it not possible for one weekend to just assume you might have to travel and make arrangements to suit, before being pleasantly suprised otherwise?
Or (methinks more likely), is this just another crack of the whip regarding the junior qualifications... if they don't believe you yet, give 'em another reason to believe.
I make no promises next season will be better, but I'd give an arm if it wasn't different.
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Post by gj on Nov 16, 2012 19:34:14 GMT 10
Without buying into the qualifying thing, why don't you all stop sooking about travel. Give a thought to the real country kids (not counting Geelong this time Nate) who travel many hours just to get to the game, and are usually the first there as well. These kids give up a lot to play and you never hear them whinging about getting up at 5am to play the game they love. And the parents that drive them......
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Post by oldmanriver on Nov 19, 2012 10:28:07 GMT 10
Eagle/Wako. Reading your replies still leaves me to ask the question, why waste 5 or 6 weeks of the season to play grading games if you can then request where the team/Club wishes their little darlings to play. Everybody knows who and what and where 85% of the teams will finish up. Personally I couldn't give a stuff about travelling, that just goes hand in hand with the competition, but your insensitivity towards families that have multiple kids playing sport leads me to believe that you don't have a family that play different sports on a weekend. I would be counting your arms, this time next year you may be missing one.
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Post by wako on Nov 19, 2012 13:21:28 GMT 10
Eagle/Wako. Reading your replies still leaves me to ask the question, why waste 5 or 6 weeks of the season to play grading games if you can then request where the team/Club wishes their little darlings to play. Everybody knows who and what and where 85% of the teams will finish up. Personally I couldn't give a stuff about travelling, that just goes hand in hand with the competition, but your insensitivity towards families that have multiple kids playing sport leads me to believe that you don't have a family that play different sports on a weekend. I would be counting your arms, this time next year you may be missing one. aueagle30 already addressed the issue of the grading game-special request system - it's (correct me if I'm misinterpreting, Nate) a compromise between the problems clubs have raised with junior grading, ie: clubs nominating teams to inappropriate grades, thereby necessitating grading games, and clubs being assigned inappropriate grades after grading games due to unfairly tough/easy grading fixtures, temporarily player unavailability, etc, thereby necessitating special requests for different grading. What that has to do with me, I don't know, because I haven't given any opinion here about the junior grading system, because I don't have one as I'm not involved in it and don't have the required knowledge to properly form an opinion. Similarly, I haven't said a thing about family logistics as it relates to sport. All I said that had even the slightest relevance to this was that Melbourne to Geelong is often considered a far more onerous trip than Geelong to Melbourne, which can easily be demonstrated by various posts on this forum, club match reports (it's really anywhere "outside Melbourne", not just Geelong, for the speaker/writer's personal definition of "Melbourne") and observation of society in general. Comprende?
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 19, 2012 13:33:41 GMT 10
OMR, regarding the qualification rounds, as I've expressed several times already, they were introduced three seasons ago (including this season) after club administrators and parents argued the system at the time (clubs nominating their teams) was not appropriately reflecting the abilites of teams... considering the short time span since the last change, the statistical variance between the two structres being relatively small (until this season), and the need to develop a clearer understanding of a better alternative, the league held off making big changes this season, instead implementing the flexibility of moving teams if considered appropriate.
Let's assume your made-up percentage of everyone knowing where 85% of teams will finish after qualifying is correct... less than 2% of the teams participating in the junior competitions asked for their teams to be moved following the qualifying round... this means the qualifying structure was more than 98% effective in determining where teams should be competing, making it much more effective than your approach.
It is severely lacking in balance that you have argued for the past two months that BV should listen to the clubs when they claim to know where the teams should play, then be critical of a process that provides for the clubs and the league to work together on appropriately situating teams.
I'm not defending the current system... as I've already said, it's my understanding a different structure will be in place next year... but your claims of the league having their head in sand could be very easily reflected back to you.
As for the issue of travel... as the coach of the Geelong Baseball Club for the past 10 years, I think I would be more than qualified to speak of the burdens and challenges of travel.
I have continually lobbied the league over the past decade to be more understanding of the travel burdens of parents and players, particularly those living in regional areas.
It's an issue I must have dealt with on almost a daily basis every season for the past ten... I haven't only experienced this from the perspective of my own family, but the perspective of hundreds of families.
That said, our club respects the Division One Summer League has long been the highest level of club baseball in Victoria, and for the privilege of challenging ourselves against the best, we must be prepared to travel. Yes, we lose players because of the burden, but we also keep players wanting to challenge themselves. It would be a shame to see the quality of the league compromised over the issue of travel, especially considering regional and local alternatives already exist in the winter.
To accuse me of insensitivity to those that travel is ignorant of how much this issue has been a part of my baseball experience, both as a player and coach.
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Post by wrongway25 on Nov 19, 2012 13:41:25 GMT 10
It's interesting that a team that complained that it scored 118 - 2 over the five game grading series started its major league campaign with a 21 - 1 win.
Sometimes a team is just that good!
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Post by wyatt33 on Nov 19, 2012 13:55:28 GMT 10
Country kids carny complain about travel because its a fact of life! That's why people live in the city....der! Travelling to Geelong to be there at 8.00 am on a Sunday is an inconvenience! If you've got an 8,6 and new born to come as well, it is an issue. FTG to Geelong is at the least an hour and half min, not allowing for stops, and then the trip back for an early seniors game, well, as I've stated, an inconvenience. And before I cop....' What about the country kids!'....again they live in the country. It's life! I'm sure ill upset the bumpkins, but it is a big f-ing inconvenience, in my circumstance. Now as for the grading games, they're done, and going of the game on Sunday, were in our right grade now. And I'm looking forward to the rest of the season...including our trip to sleepy hollow!
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Post by wako on Nov 19, 2012 14:08:25 GMT 10
Country kids carny complain about travel because its a fact of life! That's why people live in the city....der! Travelling to Geelong to be there at 8.00 am on a Sunday is an inconvenience! If you've got an 8,6 and new born to come as well, it is an issue. FTG to Geelong is at the least an hour and half min, not allowing for stops, and then the trip back for an early seniors game, well, as I've stated, an inconvenience. And before I cop....' What about the country kids!'....again they live in the country. It's life! I'm sure ill upset the bumpkins, but it is a big f-ing inconvenience, in my circumstance. Now as for the grading games, they're done, and going of the game on Sunday, were in our right grade now. And I'm looking forward to the rest of the season...including our trip to sleepy hollow! Are you aware that a lot of people from the inner suburbs probably have the same complaint about travelling to Mulgrave (that's why people live in zone 1, der!)? Where's your "inconvenient travel" demarcation line? You could also argue that inconvenient travel is a "fact of life" of playing in a state competition.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 19, 2012 15:07:58 GMT 10
wyatt33, I'm yet to actually encounter any regional-based people complaining about travelling to play baseball. Most of the complaining seems to be coming from the spoilt, soft-handed, flat-assed, nose-in-the-air types that believe living in a big city makes them something special.
The point of most posts from those regional-based forum members is that perhaps people like you could harden up some and stop complaining about the burden of your one trip per year outside Melbourne, while sparing a thought for those who willingly and graciously carry the burden on an almost weekly basis for the opportunity to play in the VICTORIAN Summer Baseball League.
You may not be aware, but the Geelong Baseball Club has been a constant member of the VICTORIAN Baseball Association/VICTORIAN Summer League for almost 30 years… As a constant inconvenience to part-time, half-hearted enthusiasts like you, we could not be prouder of our place in Victorian baseball.
If the burden is so great, please just stick to participating in the MELBOURNE Winter Baseball League... And if you can put aside your lofty sense of big-city entitlement and suffer through the excruciating one-off, three hour journey involved with visiting Geelong once this year, please don't let the gates of our international standard baseball facility hit your bum on the way back out.
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Post by wako on Nov 19, 2012 15:23:43 GMT 10
wyatt33, I'm yet to actually encounter any regional-based people complaining about travelling to play baseball. Most of the complaining seems to be coming from the spoilt, soft-handed, flat-assed, nose-in-the-air types that believe living in a big city makes them something special. The point of most posts from those regional-based forum members is that perhaps people like you could harden up some and stop complaining about the burden of your one trip per year outside Melbourne, while sparing a thought for those who willingly and graciously carry the burden on an almost weekly basis for the opportunity to play in the VICTORIAN Summer Baseball League. You may not be aware, but the Geelong Baseball Club has been a constant member of the VICTORIAN Baseball Association/VICTORIAN Summer League for almost 30 years… As a constant inconvenience to part-time, half-hearted enthusiasts like you, we could not be prouder of our place in Victorian baseball. If the burden is so great, please just stick to participating in the MELBOURNE Winter Baseball League... And if you can put aside your lofty sense of big-city entitlement and suffer through the excruciating one-off, three hour journey involved with visiting Geelong once this year, please don't let the gates of our international standard baseball facility hit your bum on the way back out. He could play in the DBA...which would be just as well, because in the VWBL you risk having to travel to Broadford to play Mitchell Majors
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 19, 2012 15:36:49 GMT 10
To be clear wako, there is no VICTORIAN Winter Baseball League, only a MELBOURNE Winter Baseball League... www.mwbl.baseball.com.au/
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Post by masters on Nov 19, 2012 15:40:05 GMT 10
Wyatt33 is complaining about juniors did the Mulgrave firsts get their a$$ kicked again
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Post by wako on Nov 19, 2012 15:45:27 GMT 10
To be clear wako, there is no VICTORIAN Winter Baseball League, only a MELBOURNE Winter Baseball League... www.mwbl.baseball.com.au/Correct...still, quite a lot of terribly inconvenient travel! It says "Melbourne", yet, you actually have to venture outside the Melway red maps! Not on!
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 19, 2012 15:48:18 GMT 10
masters, since you asked... taken from the Summer League website...
"... Williamstown caned Mulgrave 18-3 in a mismatch that was decided in seven. Although the Rebels remain in the pack – on four and four – theirs was a dismal effort today against a clear league improver that has its sights set on a finals berth."
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Post by pirates on Nov 19, 2012 16:44:35 GMT 10
looking at all these post I'm probably going to repeat someone’s views but.......why would you, like authentic mentions, have grading games and then let everyone re pick teams? it just makes the whole processes a waste of time and very confusing to many parents IMO.
the other issue that has sparked some comments from aueagle30 which I think are a bit over the top in slanging off at city types....blah blah blah your club has had great success and some might say you have a very generous local council who have seen the opportunity to benefit from visiting toffs from Melbourne while making sure the local community/youth enjoy the area by having top facilities without the need to move to the city. I actually don’t mind travelling to our other major city but it is an issue for both groups of parents to do it on a Sunday morning in either direction. I’ve said it before with senior and juniors why wouldn’t you split the state into east and west. There are enough good teams in each region for the kids to play a high level of baseball without the crazy travel time on a Sunday morning. I’m not sure about anybody else but this is one of the most difficult points in recruiting new kids to play. With the cost of fuel going to be a real issue the league and the clubs need to come up with a proactive plan to make it easier for all concerned. This is not a dig at Geelong but you would have to say it will reduce the burden on families. At the end of the season you could have east champs play west champs for the state flag.
Aueagle30 you seem to be an very analytical type, I’m sure you have thought about the options from your clubs point of view because one day there may not be such an avid promoter of the game around your club or region..
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 19, 2012 19:05:59 GMT 10
pirates, as I've tried to explain now several times now (not well, it would seem!!), prior to this season the SLC introduced a clause into the junior qualification rules to allow clubs to submit requests to the SLC following the qualification period to reassign their team.
This was introduced because the SLC acknowledged the qualification rounds were not foolproof and some flexibility was required (an example was a team in the past couple of seasons that had two rainouts, finished 2-1 and third in the qualification rounds, missed out on Major League, but one look at the playing list showed the team was far too good for AAA... unfortunately, there was not the flexibility to rectify this and the team was left to compete, and dominate, the AAA competition).
By providing for some flexibility, the SLC created an opportunity for any anomolies following the qualifying rounds to be corrected.
Again, the SLC was under no illusions the qualifying process was perfect. It could be argued the end was effective, with almost all teams accepting where they've been assigned, but we were aware of the concerns of clubs and instituted a clause to improve the overall outcomes.
Please note, I've been on record more than once stating I understand the greater flaws in the qualifying structure, and while the end may have effective, the means to get there needs addressing.
In regard to the travel, my main objection against altering the summer league to address the issue of travel is there are already competitions in place for this purpose... THE WINTER LEAGUES!!!! If we start regionalising the summer leagues, we just replicate the winter competitions, making at least one of them redundant.
pirates, please let me be clear... most Melbournians I've met are wonderful people (once you've checked your pockets to make sure they haven't mugged you)... honestly, some of my best friends are from the western suburbs of Melbourne... but the one's like wyatt33, well they just getma goddam goat, ya know... just make me want to spit some Beechnut in his eye!
In all seriousness, I see travel as an issue for some and I'm respectful that it is a barrier to some playing in our summer state league competition. For those, there is regional winter competitions. Look around at other sports... we're not the only sport that requires players to travel to participate in state competitions... I've also knows plenty of cricketers that have quit the VCA because they don't want to travel.
Yes, the Geelong Baseball Club has been fortunate that we've developed a strong relationship with our council... but we've also worked very hard to make improve the experience of our members to offset the burden of travel... we try to make playing for Geelong worth the effort it takes, and for most members, I think they accept it.
And while I appreciate the impact you think I've had in developing the club, please remember the Geelong Baseball Club was a strong and successful club for almost 20 years before I started working there... and well before the highway upgrades made Melbourne 20 mins closer.
Where the club goes after my time is outside my control, but please don't think people accept the travel because I've somehow convinced them... they do so because its important to them... as long as playing high quality baseball is important to people in Geelong, I assume they will accept travelling for the opportunity... when it's no longer important to people in Geelong, I guess it won't matter anyway, we've got a winter league for people to play in.
(PS... this is no way a judgement on the quality of winter baseball... I'm sure those playing winter baseball believe their leagues are of good quality and I'm in no position to argue otherwise... I will, however, argue the Victorian Summer League is a higher standard than any winter league currently in Victoria.)
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Post by wako on Nov 19, 2012 20:00:24 GMT 10
I would say that the vast majority of people from Greater Melbourne clubs I've been around seem to be quite happy to make the occasional trip to Geelong, even if it's for a junior game before a senior game elsewhere, or vice versa. Sometimes the logistical burden is too great and they simply can't do it (as is sometimes the case for Geelong players); this is unfortunate but scarcely avoidable if we wish to maintain the Summer League as the premier level of competition in Victoria. Sunshine have agreed to play a midweek game in Geelong, as Essendon have also done in recent years, as have Masters teams on occasion, including the Buccaneers, who, with a large group of supporters, made quite a trek from the North-East and supported our bar and canteen quite nicely, it must be said. Upwey FTG - possibly the Division 1 club with the furthest drive from Geelong, albeit a relatively simple one - are playing a Saturday night game in Geelong. It's only an unfortunately vocal minority who seem to think that they can screw in a lightbulb by holding it stationary in the socket, because the world revolves around them and their particular 20km radius.
I understand the argument that regionalising would help in recruiting players, especially juniors, but could it really be said that we would be doing enough to prepare juniors for representative and other high-level baseball if (for example) Doncaster's juniors don't play Geelong's, Essendon's don't play Cheltenham's, etc? IMO Summer League, while not excluding players not of an elite standard (eg: me), should be oriented toward players who are at least trying to play the best baseball they can. Junior players who want to play baseball in summer and aren't interested in striving for a higher level but just want to have fun playing without worrying about (or their parents worrying about) travel can be and are currently (probably not to the extent they should be, admittedly) catered for by the Friday night competitions. I believe Geelong used to have such competitions and I'm sure it would be great if we could get numbers back up to be able to do it again.
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