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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 24, 2012 11:40:43 GMT 10
Judging by the stats that bbq27 has produced just reinforces what everybody thinks about grading games in Juniors. It sucks. Perhaps after this season, BV could pull their collective heads out of the sand and introduce the promotion and relegation system for the 18's and 16's and have nominated teams for the 14's and 12's as those two age groups will vary from year to year. It is not really rocket science. Also i am fairly sure that having major, aaa, and minor in the 18's is really not the way to go if there is only enought teams to fill probably a two tier competition. It is about time BV got a little more serious about the structure and running of Junior Baseball in this state.
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Post by sueridgpipe on Oct 24, 2012 13:46:00 GMT 10
Agree totally OMR. My oldest bloke has played 3 games now and his team hasnt been challenged yet. They played ateam on sunday they expected to be their toughest in the group becuase of previous results. They won 28 3. Go back to letting the clubs nominate their prefered level for sunday teams and have the kids that dont cut it play domestics friday night. BUT! I have said it once and i will say it again, ALL THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT IS BEING POLITICALLY CORRECT and letting everyone start on the same playing field so little johnnys mum dont carry on like a 2 bob watch that her son is better than that! IT HAPPENS MATE I PROMISE U THAT!
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Post by wyatt33 on Oct 24, 2012 14:30:29 GMT 10
What if clubs don't have a domestic comp wokka? We're not all blessed with luxury of having four domestic teams to choose an all star side. And don't give me crap about working harder to get kids down to the club.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 17:55:02 GMT 10
Judging by the stats that bbq27 has produced just reinforces what everybody thinks about grading games in Juniors. It sucks. Perhaps after this season, BV could pull their collective heads out of the sand and introduce the promotion and relegation system for the 18's and 16's and have nominated teams for the 14's and 12's as those two age groups will vary from year to year. It is not really rocket science. Also i am fairly sure that having major, aaa, and minor in the 18's is really not the way to go if there is only enought teams to fill probably a two tier competition. It is about time BV got a little more serious about the structure and running of Junior Baseball in this state. www.essendonbaseball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/like.gif{/img]
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Post by sueridgpipe on Oct 24, 2012 20:32:19 GMT 10
I wouldnt do that wyatt............ Well in the old days of four years ago caleb played for bonbeach and on a friday night they played against sandy chelt berwick ormond Starting at say 630 and finished at bout 8. Best kids played sunday. What im saying is if ur kids aint good enough for sundays they play against equal kids friday nights, or do the vba not do this anymore?
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Post by dickieknee on Oct 24, 2012 21:56:00 GMT 10
Sue those days are back.
Friday night comps are back on for the lower age groups. Say gidday to Caleb for me, haven't seen you both in years since Halse and I were helping with U12 at Bonbeach
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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 25, 2012 6:49:49 GMT 10
I could be wrong, but I think that a friday night team counts as part of the Famous Junior Criteria. I don't think that it is compulsory to have a Sunday team as well. So that may be a good place to put the inexperienced 12's & 14's before they attack the rigours of sheep station Sunday. One 12's on a Friday and one 12's on a Sunday still equals two sides. Like I have suggested, let the Clubs nominate where the wee folk play. Only in the 16's & 18's are the teams set by the previous seasons standings. Don't expect BV to make any sense of it.
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Post by sueridgpipe on Oct 25, 2012 9:55:59 GMT 10
If that is the case dickie then why are clubs playing so many ill equipped teams on a sunday and these kids having their a***s handed to them? BECAUSE OF LITTLE JOHNNYS MUM THATS WHY. its an absolute joke,with the average winning margins in the 12's and14's half the bloody teams shouldnt be there. Some of the clubs commitees need to grow a pair and sayTHESE KIDS ARENT UP TO IT they can play on FRIDAY
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Post by farnt on Oct 25, 2012 11:52:33 GMT 10
Could clubs put an open nomination as to whether they want their junior team in say Div One or Two to BV pre season - they then collate and circulate to all clubs to review and the clubs individually agree to then accept or reject each one? F'rinstance, if only eight clubs nominate for the top level and there are no objections from other clubs we're off an running. If ten nominate, and six of these clubs are unanimously 'granted' acceptance by the other clubs and four are deemed 'questionable or debatable', then the first three weeks those four teams play each other to ascertain which two get 'accepted' into the top grade, with their points carried through. The original 'accepted' clubs can start their season straight away, with the two late entries slotting in. Yes, it will not be an even playing of games but can't win them all. The two teams that don't make it through fall into the second division and whilst they don't necessarily bring points, they are probably strong enough to win more than they lose over the rest of the season to till be contenders. Is it bad form to quote yourself? I thought my idea was pretty good!
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Post by littlejohnnysmum on Oct 25, 2012 12:27:04 GMT 10
If that is the case dickie then why are clubs playing so many ill equipped teams on a sunday and these kids having their a***s handed to them? BECAUSE OF LITTLE JOHNNYS MUM THATS WHY. its an absolute joke,with the average winning margins in the 12's and14's half the bloody teams shouldnt be there. Some of the clubs commitees need to grow a pair and sayTHESE KIDS ARENT UP TO IT they can play on FRIDAY Happy to sort this out in the carpark Sue. I've smashed many Hampton Park hoes in my day, happy to smash another. (Especially one who's probably mutton dressed as lamb). My little Johnny doesn't expect to be in the top grade of his age group, he just wants to play. This isn't my fault, it's BV who set the draws in a way to ensure the main contenders for Majors are in separate draws. Hence the lopsided results.
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Post by wrongway25 on Oct 25, 2012 12:30:35 GMT 10
If that is the case dickie then why are clubs playing so many ill equipped teams on a sunday and these kids having their a***s handed to them? BECAUSE OF LITTLE JOHNNYS MUM THATS WHY. its an absolute joke,with the average winning margins in the 12's and14's half the bloody teams shouldnt be there. Some of the clubs commitees need to grow a pair and sayTHESE KIDS ARENT UP TO IT they can play on FRIDAY I don't think the issue is Friday vs Sunday comp, we have three different grades of Sunday competition. A beginner could well play in a Friday domestic team as well as a AA or if they are good enough a AAA Sunday team without being put up against your Cheltenham A's (and their 73 - 1 record) or Berwick Blues. After all aren't we trying to bring all these children to the best standard that they can play at? It'll be an awfully small Sunday junior competition if we were to just restrict it to the best. Mind you the five week grading system that pits these Major league teams against the AA standard teams is in my opinion a waste of time and as others have pointed out potentially dangerous.
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Post by dickieknee on Oct 25, 2012 12:41:07 GMT 10
Can't speak for other teams.
However we were approached by Cheltenham (along with other local clubs) to start up the Friday night games again. From a committee level, truthfully, I am not aware of the win/loss levels for the junior teams at this stage of the season. What I can comment on is how many kids are training on a Thursday night and the infectious enjoyment they have. Everybody appears to be having a great deal of fun.
As you and I know, in the old days the best got into the Sunday games. With a few on the edge to make up numbers and get exposure to a higher quality of game play.
For those teams that are being done over; Have they noticed if the performance of the Friday teams has increased?
First thing in my mind is; are all the players at this age level still having fun? From what I have seen. The answer to my last question is a definate YES
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Post by sueridgpipe on Oct 25, 2012 13:32:52 GMT 10
point taken wrongway it just worrys me that in wyatts case he has a team full of newbies and they would appear to have no option but to in the comp they are in whatever the outcome hopefully the change this crap system they are using . it is good for no one
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Post by sueridgpipe on Oct 25, 2012 13:39:30 GMT 10
Great to hear from you again little johnnysmum, how have your gravelled up knees recovered over the years from your time on them behind the change rooms at the home of the redbacks!
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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 25, 2012 14:26:24 GMT 10
I do believe taht the onus is on the Club to sort out what is best for the kids in that paticular age group and if enough clubs band togetherand march on BV and politely tell them that their grading system sucks and is totally flawed and that the Clubs deserve the right to pick where ceratin u/12 sides should be playing then and only then will this pile of poop be put to bed. It is not about Johnnys Mum but the responsibility of the Club to identify the grade that these little darlings should be playing in. Maybe the Friday night concept hasn't been explained to well to the Clubs with under ability sides(beginners).
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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 25, 2012 14:31:56 GMT 10
Just as a footnote. The lad in 11 innings has given up only 3 hits. The grading games are proving to be basically a no contest and even now you could tell who will be in the top grade without playing any further games.
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Post by eckersley43 on Oct 25, 2012 14:52:55 GMT 10
Spare a thought for "Little Johnny"..his self esteem must be shot! I have never seen him play, but apparently he's not as good as "Little Billy"..and nowhere up to the standard of "Big Bobby!"
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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 25, 2012 15:04:12 GMT 10
Let's face reality, BV head in the sand and bicycle rack in the air. Nothing will change despite all the ranting and raving that takes place in this wonderful forum. In 12 months time we will be typing this all over again. Just spare a thought for all the little Johnny's , Billy's and Big Bobby's that will probably reckon this game sucks because of the lopsided floggings they will receive over the next fortnight and ask Mum, can I play cricket. Then BV can slap themselves on the back and congratulate themselves for turning away 20 or so kids from baseball. HOORAY.
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Post by wyatt33 on Oct 25, 2012 15:34:30 GMT 10
Dickieknee, I can catagoricaly confirm that although my kids aren't setting the world on fire, they are having a blast! So no danger of them dropping off just yet. In fact I've picked up two more kids last week. Give them a couple of years and they'll be up and about!
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Post by larry42 on Oct 25, 2012 17:06:18 GMT 10
Let's face reality, BV head in the sand and bicycle rack in the air. Nothing will change despite all the ranting and raving that takes place in this wonderful forum. In 12 months time we will be typing this all over again. Just spare a thought for all the little Johnny's , Billy's and Big Bobby's that will probably reckon this game sucks because of the lopsided floggings they will receive over the next fortnight and ask Mum, can I play cricket. Then BV can slap themselves on the back and congratulate themselves for turning away 20 or so kids from baseball. HOORAY. OMR..I reckon there may be some pretty good baseball people working towards a better solution for next year and beyond. Trying to come to a suitable fixture that suits the majority of clubs will be difficult, but workable. Let's hope that all teams get through the next two weeks of qualifying games, and can move in to a more balanced competition phase with competitive games. Seeing 35 nil games in a pool (score last week U14 pool) isn't what anyone wants to see.
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Post by perfeckt on Oct 25, 2012 21:22:24 GMT 10
I think that some kids just want to play, as in sandbox play, as in 'who cares', as in I just wanna throw, run, hit and laugh, go home and feel happy. Other kids have an inborn need to do more and so do some parents. I think that there should be room for all kinds of kids and then their parents.
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scam
Junior Member
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Post by scam on Oct 26, 2012 10:51:44 GMT 10
Just a correction, junior criteria is based on the number of teams you have, not the number of registered players (except TBall). It also stipulates that a side cannot be counted twice. That is, using OMR's example, if you have one domestic U12 side and one All Star U12 side, even if they are different kids in each side, this only counts as the one team. If a club believes that some players are too inexperienced for Sunday's however has a team of kids for the Sunday comp, these kids would be forced to play both domestic and Sunday's (2 teams domestic, 1 team Sunday's). I know for some of our kids, that commitment would be too great (as far as parents and siblings commitments go) and we would lose some of them. In fact, I know of one of our U12's who transferred to our club this year because he is too experienced to play the modified domestic comp (coach pitch etc) and wanted to play Sunday's however being from a split family with another sibling the commitment for two mornings a weekend for 3 hours (plus travelling time) was excessive, let alone training nights as well.
Just having the inexperienced kids play on a Sunday is no problems at all and actually makes it easier to explain to potential parents when enquiring about playing our game. Much easier to say that games are Sunday mornings from this time to this time with training on this night compared to games are on Friday night/Saturday morning at this ground, we train on this night at our ground and if your child is good enough he might get selected to play on Sundays and that could be anywhere in metro Melbourne... That's enough to scare a few parents away...
By the way, the other issue of the qualifying rounds is coming to fruition with us. We have two Mulgrave teams. 'A' is a much more experienced team who will be competitive in a 'AAA' comp (second tier down). 'B' is a very inexperienced team who will need to be in the bottom group once redrawn (in saying that, last year there were only 2 groups so I'm hoping there are 3 this year). Trouble is, 'A' have had are 0-3 having had a win stripped of them due to the clearance problem previously discussed. 'B' are 1-2 having been beaten by 15 runs and 27 runs and the win was due to a forfeit received on the weekend. Lets just hope that the next 2 games can sort this out although much will depend on how many minor league groups are created post the redraw.
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Post by aueagle30 on Oct 26, 2012 14:41:28 GMT 10
Judging by the stats that bbq27 has produced just reinforces what everybody thinks about grading games in Juniors. It sucks. Perhaps after this season, BV could pull their collective heads out of the sand and introduce the promotion and relegation system for the 18's and 16's and have nominated teams for the 14's and 12's as those two age groups will vary from year to year. I do believe taht the onus is on the Club to sort out what is best for the kids in that paticular age group and if enough clubs band togetherand march on BV and politely tell them that their grading system sucks and is totally flawed and that the Clubs deserve the right to pick where ceratin u/12 sides should be playing then and only then will this pile of poop be put to bed. OMR, pulled my head out of the sand long enough yesterday to do some investigating into bbq27's stats... all well and good to present stats for this season, but pretty lazy to just assume they prove your point without first checking a little deeper. bbq27 noted 62% of games this season have been decided by 10+ runs... last season, it was 55% of all games (an increase this season of 10 games decided by 10+ runs). Over the previous two years for U/12 and U/14, average run differential was just under 13, now we have a spike this year to 16. I also looked at games decided by 5 or less runs, since this is another indicator of competitive games. Over the previous two years, 30% of all games were decided by 5 or less runs... this has decreased this year to 23%, or 9 less games. Why the spike this year... If I was one for pointing the finger at others, I could say it was coaches being more merciless this year... particularly those who continue to pitch kids during grading periods that are clearly dominant, like say pitchers only giving up 3 hits in 11 innings... the reality is, there's probably a range of reasons that have caused this spike... the reality is, to just blame BV and accuse anyone involved in the decision-making process of being ignorant, is too simplistic. Further to your idea that allowing teams to nominate is the panacea for junior competitiveness, I also went back and assessed the last season of junior nominations, 2009/2010... Average run differential over the first five games was 9.28 in U/12's and 11.67 in U/14's (both combined state/metro). 51% of all games (3 less games/week) were decided by 10+ runs and 25% were decided by 5 runs or less (1.5 games/week less than in the first two years of the qualifying system). Yes, some of the numbers are better than under the qualifying system, but are you still happy with a system that sees the average run differential above 10 and more than half the games decided by 10+ runs? I don't claim to have the answers to the problems of the junior competition, but I assure you, my, and the heads of others at BV are looking are far from being stuck in the sand.
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Post by wyatt33 on Oct 26, 2012 16:02:07 GMT 10
Can I just say, I don't think there's anything wrong with a pitcher pitching to his or her potential. If they give up 3 hits over 11 innings, that's a fantastic record, and the kids that can do this shouldn't be discouraged from pitching at their best. They just shouldn't be pitching to kids that aren't in the same league as them. Having grading games wastes too much of a season, and these should be games that are competative, and consequently kids are more motivated to continue. Saying that, once again, my kids are having a ball!
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Post by Goblin on Oct 26, 2012 18:56:07 GMT 10
Can anyone provide me with the answer to why there is currently NO JUNIOR GAMES scheduled for Next Sunday the 4th of Nov.
Somewhere between the draft fixture the clubs received just prior to the season start and the current online version of the fixtures a decision was made that no games would be played on that day.
Personally I only became aware of it last week when it was pointed out to me followed by the question of why.
The only explanation that I have received is because it is Melbourne Cup weekend... huh !
Yet this has not been the case in the past few years. Juniors have normally played that weekend.
This has double compounded the qualifying process that is currently underway.
Why is that I hear you saying ?
Where any of the teams that have a bye in their group there will be two teams that don't play for a 2 week period. (Those with a bye in the 4th Rd or a bye in the 5th Rd.
Also take into to account the number of teams that get a walkover or forfeit.
Plus the amount of games that are a blowout as a result of being over matched.
I must agree this qualifying way of going about things is a cop out.
I will also throw in the following.
In Rd 3, Essendon A played Newport B and Newport A played Essendon B and well shiver me timbers what was the results
Ess A defeated Newp B 15-4 Newp A defeated Ess B 18-3
Now that wasn't a surprise was it.
I for one will be happier when the decision rests back with the clubs to what grading they entered their teams.
So back to my basic question why are they not playing on the 4th of Nov ?
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beaverball
Junior Member
hey fungo im sandra dee
Posts: 72
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Post by beaverball on Oct 26, 2012 19:59:40 GMT 10
Hey.........Staff at BV
There seems to be an over whelming opinion that one sided contests at Junior level is passed it's use by date.
Please let the clubs make their decision to which level of competition they enter for. Re grade after 6 or 7 rounds, and make the adjustments .
Oversee the clubs who take the soft option in lower divisions, take care of those playing above their weight limit.
Being accountable at games shows a genuine interest in achieving the right structure.
Let's get it done.
Cheers..................Beaver
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 20:35:55 GMT 10
Thanks for pointing that out Goblin - so now I can add another point to my list of matters that have bemused me about Summer Baseball this year.
One more and I get a free set of steak knives !!!!!!
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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 29, 2012 6:45:06 GMT 10
I must admit, until yesterday morning watching another lopsided game in the 18's I didn't realise that next Sunday was a sleep in. How stupid can the BV organisers get, too prolong these grading games by another week, all this will do is shorten the real season. It's a bit like watching that movie called Dumb and Dumber. I must admit, I do have a fair crack at BV and have decided, I will put my hand up to take over the Junior fixturing next year if required. It would be a free service and more open to Clubs having a say. Just think of the money the clubs would save to have the junior section run for nothing. It would be done on a volunteer basis, just like most Winter organizations. Goblin, I liked your pointing out of the lunacy of the grading fixture, and when you get answer for my forced sleep in next week, let me know so I can explain it the GLW.
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Post by larry42 on Oct 29, 2012 13:51:13 GMT 10
I must admit, until yesterday morning watching another lopsided game in the 18's I didn't realise that next Sunday was a sleep in. How stupid can the BV organisers get, too prolong these grading games by another week, all this will do is shorten the real season. It's a bit like watching that movie called Dumb and Dumber. I must admit, I do have a fair crack at BV and have decided, I will put my hand up to take over the Junior fixturing next year if required. It would be a free service and more open to Clubs having a say. Just think of the money the clubs would save to have the junior section run for nothing. It would be done on a volunteer basis, just like most Winter organizations. Goblin, I liked your pointing out of the lunacy of the grading fixture, and when you get answer for my forced sleep in next week, let me know so I can explain it the GLW. Please don't put up your hand to do fixturing next year. I'll put my faith in the fact that there are enough baseball savvy people involved, and aware of the situation this year (which seems more predominant than other years) to ensure that next year is diferent and hopefully better.
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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 29, 2012 14:20:15 GMT 10
larry, if they were aware of the situation, they would wouldn't be in the situation they are now in. Up sh!t creek without a paddle. It seems that your faith isn't very strong if that is what you believe. Reading this forum, there doesn't seem to be many positives coming out of it and if you believe this is the correct system, please explain how a side can have their four state players sitting on the bench and proceed to loose. But nobody tanks do they. Just keep the blinkers and the faith will come to only those who wish it to so be it. Do you really believe next year will be different. You really are the eternal optermist. Keep the faith.
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