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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 17:24:28 GMT 10
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 17:55:43 GMT 10
In its formative stages, the ABL made consistent reference to this being a "development league". Development of who, by whom and for whom has never been abundantly clear. MLB might - and probably does - have its own quite different perspective to some of us.
The league can, in theory at least, fulfil a "development" function that benefits various parties - including our own emerging players, our aspiring coaches and those overseas professionals either rehabbing or seeking to prove their credentials.
The league is generating high-quality baseball, no doubt about that, though attendances have to be a real concern. That may be something to do with the turnover of international players from season to season.
Bit of a dilemma, really. If the league limited the number of imports then the standard would stagnate, although clubs might be able to more readily develop a local fan base. But if the ABL continues to serve largely as a winter-ball option for overseas professionals then it will remain difficult to develop that local fan base.
And if the league somehow chose to limit the number of imports - or the terms of their involvement - then it would risk running foul of its MLB partner that has stumped up the lion's share of operational costs.
In the absence of some benefactor putting up gazillions to run a stand-alone, fully professional Australian Baseball League, we will remain captive to the current priorities of the major shareholder in the league.
For the time being at least, we may have to go with what we have - including the crucial ongoing support of MLB International - and trust that the ABL can strike a balance on the "development" function.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 19:43:58 GMT 10
I just read that story for the first time, whoswingsit.
Would have to say that this is the sort of player that the league does not especially need. As an unaffiliated and unproven entity coming off serious surgery, his value to the Aces and to the ABL appears to be zilch.
On an unrelated matter, Aces writer Alexis Brudnicki is a prolific and clearly very capable person. I wonder does she know, or does she (or the ABL) care that Australian Baseball Digest has been plagiarising her articles in their entirety over recent times. Along with others, of course. Wilfully, effectively, unethically and unlawfully directing internet traffic away from legitimate baseball organisations and writers.
As an aspiring professional, she should care. She and the ABL should take the appropriate legal action. On the other hand maybe she, like Henry, sees ABL engagement primarily as an opportunity for personal advancement.
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Post by bobby on Nov 28, 2014 10:10:20 GMT 10
Good article, not sure why there is an issue with him playing, there have been plenty of Independent League guys play in the ABL, isnt that the same deal?
I agree with you KC unless someone comes in with a lot of $$ then we will always be at the mercy of MLB.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 17:29:11 GMT 10
Good article, not sure why there is an issue with him playing, there have been plenty of Independent League guys play in the ABL, isnt that the same deal? I agree with you KC unless someone comes in with a lot of $$ then we will always be at the mercy of MLB. Bobby,im not sure if you are drunk or stupid?There is no issue with indy ball players, or major league affiliated players. The issue I have was; the aces coach or gm choose to pick up a unsigned, injured pitcher. Who has not pitched since his surgery and hasnt got the confidence it takes to pitch at that level(which you can tell looking at him pitch and the numbers he has put up). I want the aces to succeed. If signing injured players is their game plan to make finals, then that really needs to be looked at. Maybe, they should give Henry to a local club to get some innings in? Sure we may be at the mercy of MLB but the Aces selction committee need to make better choices.
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Post by bobby on Nov 28, 2014 20:01:31 GMT 10
Drunk or stupid? The guy is 15 months out from surgery, cut him some slack. Anyone coming back would be nervous in their first couple of outings. Let's judge him when his season us done, obviously Tommy has seen him pitch and thought he could help the Aces.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 4:32:36 GMT 10
Its been a bit quiet here of late, anywho, Aces suffer another loss to themselves. Played fantastic 6innings baseball. But the relief pitchers are not getting it done and it is letting the rest of the team down. there has been 5 games where the Aces have had the lead going into the 7th and blown it, instead of sitting last with 5 wins and 12 losses they should be sitting second 10 and 7. lets hope they can get the next 3 wins.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 10:23:18 GMT 10
Another heart break last night with a blown save. Not the usual Matt Wilson we have seen over the last few weeks. I was thinking about the relief issue the aces have and I started to wonder who you would choose from local club ball(non international) to slot in to the relief role? Andy Mann would be my pick.
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Post by moose on Dec 12, 2014 11:48:34 GMT 10
A interesting suggestion. He has been tried in the past, though I can't remember how he went.
Also can anyone shed some light as to why Brown didn't pitch the 9th innings. Thought he had done OK in the previous two innings.
Despite looking in command the Aces yet found another way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Such is the season so far.
Neil W
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ricky
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Post by ricky on Dec 16, 2014 15:30:31 GMT 10
Well the Aces results haven't been what we were hoping for at this stage, however on a positive note it appears the all star game has generated serious interst with upwards of 2,000 tickets having been sold already so it looks like a bumper crowd is in store for Wednesday evening
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Post by pirates on Dec 21, 2014 8:19:07 GMT 10
Any info on attendence numbers at the home games. They used to have details at the bottom of the box scores on the aces game page. Have not heard about crowd numbers at the all star game either.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 10:17:26 GMT 10
A number for the All-Star Game was given as around 2300, pirates. That may not have factored in late arrivals paying at the gate or otherwise wandering in. It may have been closer to 3000 - certainly the largest crowd I have seen at Altona since early in the old ABL.
That is the good news. The not-so-good news is the lack of growth in Aces crowds, which seem to languish somewhere from 300-600. For the Saturday afternoon game this week it might have been 350 people, for the evening somewhat more - maybe 550 to 600. These are only guesstimates of course, based on many many vacant seats.
Into the fifth season it is surely a concern that home crowds do not appear to have grown at all (though, yes, we would have a more clear idea if the ABL published gate figures - as used to be the case). Some serious soul-searching should really be done to explain the lack of attendance growth.
The lack of mainstream promotion and coverage, the availability of live streaming, the ballpark location and the relative lack of Aces' playing success no doubt all play some part.
There is another school of thought suggesting that it may be the nature of the league structure and its personnel that is a key issue. What we have is a league run in Australia but basically delivered by and for Americans. Aside from the large number of imports across the league, administration and day-to-day delivery is basically directed and provided by MLB or affiliated interests and their minions.
While it may be a good developmental thing for emerging or rehabbing US players, for administrators and for the army of international interns padding out their CVs through being engaged with clubs, it is a worry that the league is not training local personnel in administration, marketing and media. For example, how much of the online ABL reporting is actually being done by locals? Little or none, in most states, with the responsibility taken up by internationals either here for the summer or writing/reporting from the stream back home.
Since MLB is the principal shareholder in the league, we should reasonably have expected this. However, I have a sense that MLB International simply has no faith in the capacity of local people to provide the services that are needed. After all, we're Australians. Surely we don't know anything about baseball!
If more locals were more closely involved in administration, delivery, media and related services, then it just may be that a greater level of interest would be generated.
For the ABL to be a long-term success - at least in drawing crowds - Australian residents need to feel a degree of ownership over the sport and the clubs. The locals need to be able to identify with the players, to have their mentors and their heroes who they want to go out and support. While there is an element of that - note the popularity of Huber, Harman and George, for instance - the fact is that the ABL imports will be here for their own purposes only, and usually only for a season or less.
Even with its financial woes and other issues, the old ABL seemed to strike a far better balance in its playing lists, with many imports forming a real connection with the Australian baseball community and in some cases returning year after year.
Off-field the league needs to be offering more opportunities for our own people to be actively involved either as modestly paid professionals or at least to be receiving training and gathering experience in sports administration and sports delivery.
If MLB pulled the pin on funding before next season, say, this league would be totally stuffed. Partly and obviously because of the money, but largely too because - over five seasons - we have been forced to rely far too heavily on American baseball interests and ambitious interns rather than seeking to develop a greater self-sufficiency by engaging more locals at all levels of the league.
Creating a successful and enduring national league was always going to be tough. While the ABL is a decent product that offers high-quality baseball and considerable exposure for our young players (in some states more than others), it is disappointing that minimal headway has been made in attracting people to games.
Perhaps the other states are doing better than us. It would be handy to know how figures stack up across the league.
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Post by doubleplay on Dec 22, 2014 7:03:35 GMT 10
As usual Kingsley, you are genuinely spot on with your observations. I had the privilege of being invited to the Jet Couriers Corporate Box and trust me it was a treat. But, almost 100% of the people in the CB were from the south east, and many more people that I saw also came from the south east. I do believe location does have a lot to do with small crowds especially as 60-65% of the baseball fraternity is based in the South East sector so demographics does have a lot to do with small crowds.
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Post by johne on Dec 22, 2014 9:41:45 GMT 10
I went to yesterdays game with a couple of other former players and we had a great time. The game was close, the weather was perfect and beers were cold and not too over priced (for a sporting event). The between innings activities all seemed to be run smoothly and I have to say the over all product is good.
BUT there was probably only 100 people there.
No matter how much work is done, no matter how good of team you put on the park, and no matter how you dress it up NOBODY IS GOING TO GO TO ALTONA!
History has taught us that by now surely.
If yesterdays "product" was put on offer in st kilda, Malvern or even Waverley Id be confident of decent crowds on a regular basis.
The three most important things in real estate are LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. This is also the case for our game.
If the best the aces can draw is 100 people with everything yesterday had going for it, then its time to face the reality that many of us came to long ago and that is the game will never grow while our premier team plays at Altona.
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Post by skinny on Dec 22, 2014 12:04:45 GMT 10
I would have to agree with Johne. I don't like travelling out to Altona. Not for its location. just that it is a pain in the ass to get to. and the simple facts are, crowds were better when the days of AFL park were happening. I know for a fact that Dandenong was looked at for a very long time. It had the utmost backing of the local government and it is in an area which would get more than 100 to a game. It is time for MLB, ABL and ABF to look elsewhere than Altona. It is a great stadium but even the locals don't go there.35 teams in the Summer League. Of those, 9 are from the western suburbs. that means 26 other teams are from the East, south east, north east.multiply that by 100 members per club ( approx. )that's approx. 2600 people. plus kids etc. plus wives and you are looking at close to 6000 people. Most of the people who do attend games as has been said before are from the eastern suburbs. Also, hear is a thought. Kids under 14 get in for free. How do they get there. Oh, parents. parents pay etc. just a thought. I don't want to see the ABL fail as to be a part of its inception, you want it to succeed.
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Post by lonewolf75 on Dec 22, 2014 12:51:32 GMT 10
I am pretty sure I attended an Aces game at Waverley a few years back. A whole group of us got together and headed out, sat at center field on our chairs. Pretty sure there was more than a hundred there that day and I think it may have been a mid week.
Does anyone else remember the details
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Post by gr8gamebut on Dec 22, 2014 13:06:45 GMT 10
Altona, Waverley/AFL Park, Cramer St Oval (Preston), Western Oval, Showgrounds and now Altona again. Maybe its not about the location and maybe its not about the product (which is a better product than it was then) ? I mean (the few) die hard fans might go see more than one game in a series but there are just not enough people interested enough to get good numbers in all games in a series I'm afraid.
I reckon its the lack of promotion of the product i.e. the game and the players by the State and National bodies, and of course the Aces themselves I guess.
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Post by mc15 on Dec 22, 2014 16:04:20 GMT 10
The ACES GM should IMO present a well prepared proposal / plan to the sports minister re the sale of Altona to build another facility mentioned somewhere as above. The document would provide a researched and/or estimated evaluation of both venues, all costs and required funding, drafted building plans of what the new ground was to look like, parking and other logistical requirements, all strengthening the need for this required change as soon as possible. It would also highlight the opportunity (now) of the current MLB involvement and additional funding they provide thaat may not be there in years to come. Perhaps the MLB should be approached first for additional funding before being put to the minister? Stating the current venue is holding our sports growth back and players such as Moylan, Huber, Harman, Blackley (plus many other past and present successful VIC baseball players) may thin out in years to come as the sport is on the decline? It may strengthen up the weight of a proposal to the minister with international input of such a massive organisation doing what is possible to push growth of baseball in Australia and in particular in Victoria – a previous baseball power-house! [/quote] As much as I would love this this to happen, it won't. As soon as returning to Altona as the principle venue for Victorian baseball was revisited, we were locked in there for an additional 15-30 years. The state government has invested approximately $200k+(?) back into Altona over the last three years. They will not justify the $15-20m+ investment required for a new stadium based on the relatively cheap price it costs to slowly upgrade Altona. And hats off for the work that has been done out there. A lot better than it ever has been, but unless a private backer builds a stadium, it just won't happen... Not with government money. In light of that, keep applying for the $50ishk they are getting each year for the up spec and be happy with it until a sustainable, profitable and well viewed league is in place [/quote] We've been here before this year unfortunately. Altona is here to stay. I'm assuming they got another $50k for the All Star game again
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 19:40:17 GMT 10
These are ongoing discussions that should be had. Need to be had.
While we know that Melbourne Ballpark is not a preferred location for very many people (despite the excellent upgrades and enhancements to which mc15 refers), it is surely not the sole explanation for the lack of attendance growth.
My sense is that there are other factors in play. But for anyone to make any sort of definitive judgment, comparative numbers need to be available for venues right across the league. Anecdotally we hear that Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth are drawing decent crowds, but there are no numbers being made available to demonstrate that.
How is Canberra going (close to its CBD)? And what of Sydney? The Blacktown complex (like Altona) is a long way from the CBD. How are the numbers holding up there, in Australia's largest city? Does anyone know?
While it would of course would be ideal to have the Melbourne Aces located in Albert Park, or Parkville, that is not going to happen for the reasons to which mc15 refers.
But even if the club WAS located in such a central area or even in the southeast as some people have argued for years, I am not convinced that it would be the panacea for everything - although we are probably never going to find that out.
I agree that we need to make the best of what we have (into the foreseeable future, anyhow). The challenge is to figure out what other factors can and should be addressed if we are to spark real commitment to the Aces club and maximise attendances out at Altona.
Location in a barren industrial estate to the west of the CBD is clearly an important factor, though I suspect it is not the only disincentive to attracting decent crowds. What might help would be if the ABL could - transparently and honestly - monitor and release accurate figures at all grounds across the league so that trends can be properly analysed and we can all make better informed judgments on a whole range of matters relating to attendances.
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Post by texasleaguer on Dec 22, 2014 19:49:28 GMT 10
Although I have not posted for awhile I still love reading this baseball forum, as always Kudos to KC and Goblin for creating/maintaining it.
I'm not that knowledgeable about Melbourne although I have been there a few times and worked there a bit. It does seem to me that being closer to Melbourne CBD, Eastern Suburbs, Public Transport, Road access should all be factors for that ideal ACES Field Location.
I really do think FIELD LOCATION is important to the ACES Long term success.
I would not have any idea about ACES Management but being involved with Bandits now for the 5th season and even Pre- New ABL the current Bandits Management and Field Location is key to their good numbers this season. Un-Officially I believe Bandits recent home series V Cavalry had over 3,500 Fans during the 4 games with the peak of 1,500 on Friday night. A lot of Baseball dedicated clubbies come each series but being so close to CBD and due to great management/marketing there are a lot of new fans each series showing up to Bandits games.
AFA Stadium / Holloway Field has had massive upgrades recently but it's also only maybe 5-10 minutes drive from the CBD. I think LOCATION really makes a difference.
Personally I only live maybe 10-15 Minutes drive from AFA so my time as a fan/volunteer getting there is not an issue. If Bandits played at another mooted field way South of Brisbane CBD, I would have had to give up my volunteer role and maybe just go and watch 1 game a series at most.
Another point I will make is if a New ACES Location is to be found, tie it in with a joint sport ( softball ) and a Junior facility. Governments will be more willing to allocate a grant for Junior Sports.
Just recently a Club in Brisbane close to the CBD has received a $463,000 Grant to Upgrade to the new home of QLD Baseball Academy. This does not affect Bandits /ABL just yet but will include more development for Junior Baseball here
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Post by moose on Dec 22, 2014 21:10:51 GMT 10
Good discussion and some good ideas/suggestions being thrown about.
My view is that its too simplistic to just blame the location of the ground for all the Aces woes and general lack of support by the fans.
Perhaps the performance of the club also has to be taken into consideration to a large extent. Zero road series wins (0 from 38) after almost 5 seasons. Never finishing above .500 in five seasons. People these days simply will not support a club or sport where they are struggling continuously as has been the Aces over the last three seasons. People will travel to support a successful team though (Ice hockey at docklands).
Also perhaps a little less razzmatazz during games and a bit more put back into the playing side of the games? Do we really need fireworks during the daylight hours? Why not put some of that money back into the players to help augment their minuscule match payments.
Also look at game times. 5 pm on a Saturday makes no real sense at all, especially as many still play sports (Cricket, lawn bowls) and don't finish until after start time. Such a start time denies many the chance to see a game. Simply beggars belief. Also Sunday games that clash with 'club ball' WHY??
Maybe after 5 seasons its time to bring the curtain down on the Aces. Accept that there is no future with them as they are now, too much baggage.
Then start up a southern team at a local club out in the south east. Get them up and running and then worry later if they are a hit.
Of course this is just my opinion and I know many won't agree. So Merry Christmas to one and all.
Neil W
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Post by lonewolf75 on Dec 23, 2014 6:24:27 GMT 10
Been thinking. How come they got such a decent game to the all star game. If it was all about location that would fail too. I think two of the biggest factors are marketing, The All Star game got heaps of press on SEN, and scheduling. And you could possibly add to that list the poor result history and what now appears to be a negative attitude towards the aces, organisation/front office not players, from the baseball die hards and it it no wonder that it isnt growing.
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Post by larry42 on Dec 23, 2014 8:10:01 GMT 10
We have been doomed to Altona since it was selected from the 8 locations back in the late 80's. Is a nice thought to think that the home of the Aces will/can move anywhere else, but after the money that has been invested since 2012 (upwards of $300k I believe) then we are locked in. If we had of got the old South Melbourne Ground all those years ago, we would have ben well and truly out of that by now as well. Bigger fish now inhabit that place.
If only people listened more intently to Dick Mason all those years ago....where we may have been now would have been a lot different.
I saying that, well doe to those who have worked on Altona since the upgrade started - the place certainly looks and feels more like a baseball stadium. Let's face it, it was crock of nuts when first opened.
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Post by rhricho on Dec 23, 2014 9:23:20 GMT 10
Try scheduled ACES games in 1 or 2 different locations throughout Jan & Advertise the crap out of it! Make sure everyone knows! Try a Sunday afternoon game somewhere different and compare it for example? The Aus v’s Allstar game was advertised daily and had some good drawcards with it also. Imagine if this game was a Fri or Sat night? Would have been much more than 3k. TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT! DON’T JUST POST THE SAME POINTS (SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT) THAT WE ALL KNOW & UNDERSTAND!! Get in touch with Malvern and their council, Waverly or PORT, ST KILDA, PRESTON? ? Put it out to the clubs?? Drive it? You don’t have to look far on this forum to find brick walls, or see complaints without solutions. Die trying, not on your knees saying it was useless!!
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Post by doubleplay on Dec 23, 2014 10:48:52 GMT 10
Let's face up to the truth, the only way Altona will be left behind is if private ownership takes over and whoever that maybe uproots the whole Club and moves it somewhere. Rhicho could be onto something by having a 2nd/3rd and maybe a 4th option to take the game to new areas. Wouldn't that be a great promotional tool."Aces v Whoever @ Frankston Baseball Ground on such a such date" Take the game to the people, because the people aren't going to the game.
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Post by gj on Dec 23, 2014 16:37:54 GMT 10
Some years ago when the Australian Provincials played in the Claxton, the game against the Vics was played mid week twilight at Waverley. Crowd was hanging from the rafters. Biggest crowd for the entire tournament.
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Post by mc15 on Dec 23, 2014 18:21:57 GMT 10
Agree rhricho that thinking outside the box is a must to solve the attendance issues. Unfortunately, when you sign funding commitments, you lock yourself into a venue.
The on-going financial support of Altona from the state government/sport & rec/whoever is paying the bills would be on the proviso that the games are played there. No one in their right mind would commit money to a stadium when they know games could be played elsewhere.
In a similar context, brand association in important. Having the non-baseball public know that there is one location for baseball is critical. Ask the Melbourne Tigers... Bobby is better qualified to discuss these matters.
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Post by bobby on Dec 24, 2014 20:58:33 GMT 10
I think the Brand association in this case probably isn't so important, what I mean by this is that if the Aces were sold and the new owners wanted to change the name it wouldn't be a massive issue. This is also a major problem, outside of the baseball community not many would know bout the Aces.
From a sponsorship perspective this hurts, if the aces are trying to sell sponsorship what would make a company want to sponsor them? They have a loyal bunch of sponsors at the moment but how many of them are outside the baseball community?
I agree with the comments regarding the US influence, I would be looking at VFL teams and even the Melb Storm for ideas of how to crack into new markets, you need mainstream media coverage, you don't need to be at comiccon.
Have they appointed a new GM yet? Let's not forget that head office will determine why goes on and judging by the job d they just wanted someone to sell sponsorships.
Will moving increase crowd attendance? Who knows, I do know that moving won't increase exposure in the media though.
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bb26
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Post by bb26 on Dec 24, 2014 21:41:19 GMT 10
One of the targets for the Aces has to be getting more kids to games. Not surprised that parents don't want to drive their kids to Altona to watch. How many schools are there out Altona way....compared to the number of schools in the east/South-East area. Can't tell me the Aces imports wouldn't be able to get to schools in the area for clinics etc to promote themselves and the game (and would benefit local baseball clubs too?). Advertise the Aces games in those school newsletters for free/cheap too. Kids ( u/12?) should get in for free anyway, with a paying adult? At the least get the players to give away free tickets to the schools kids when they do their clinics. Do the Aces do any school visits at all?
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Post by brad7596 on Dec 25, 2014 7:22:32 GMT 10
As a parent of 2 daughters I can tell you not being available to sign autographs after the game has really dampened their enthusiasm they don't want signatures of imports here for a year never to return they want the players they know that have been there
I will say Justin huber did make their day whilst he was out by talking to them and having photos it's my daughters favourite memory
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