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Post by wyatt33 on Mar 25, 2013 8:05:24 GMT 10
One of those might still be sitting on the fence about playing!
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Post by runningbunt on Mar 25, 2013 12:40:50 GMT 10
I heard John Edwards to Heathmont.
I also heard Brad Harman to Heathmont.
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Post by crogers20 on Mar 25, 2013 19:00:48 GMT 10
I also heard Brad Harman to Heathmont. I'm not part of the inner sanctum at Ringwood anymore, but Brad's father is the Assistant Coach this year, Brad has been a Ringwood winter player since he was six, and has never played for any other MWBL club. Would be a little sad if true, and would be very interesting to know why the move after 20ish years.
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glennm
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Post by glennm on Mar 30, 2013 17:38:32 GMT 10
Players move on, make new friends etc, this happens at lots of clubs. If it is true, and he has given Ringwood 20ish years of service, just as interesting to see the clubs response and how they treat him after what he has given to the club.
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Post by crogers20 on Mar 30, 2013 22:22:10 GMT 10
Players move on, make new friends etc, this happens at lots of clubs. If it is true, and he has given Ringwood 20ish years of service, just as interesting to see the clubs response and how they treat him after what he has given to the club. Over the last 10 years while Maggsy and I were looking after the club's administration, we didn't reject a single clearance request. Can't see that things would change now.
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Post by farnt on Mar 31, 2013 9:40:39 GMT 10
I'll give you 5000 reasons Cam...
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Post by johne on Apr 1, 2013 16:49:44 GMT 10
I'll give you 5000 reasons Cam... So what if it was $5,000 that got Brad to Heathmont? Guys like Brad devote their lives to being the best possible player they can be by sacrificing so much in an attempt to reach a dream. Often what is sacrificed is future employment opportunities. Players like Brad, myself and many others come back from the USA after being there a better part of a decade with great experiences and little else and nothing to add to resume. Where other guys we went to high school with have now finished a degree or trade and are now in the work force, we on the other hand are effectively 27 year old 18 year olds and that’s no attractive to employees. There is a real problem and lack of support structures in place for returning pro players. I wish the ABF would use the money they take from players signing bonuses and invest it in a post career program for the players they take it from. I’m unsure where it goes but I really can’t think of a better or more appropriate cause then investing in the player’s futures. A program that helps guys get into Uni, get a trade, enter the work force and basically just make the difficult adjustment to civilian life, but I have digressed a little. Back to Brad and any other player for that matter, so what if they get paid? The best players deserve to be paid, if baseball had the money local football does then everyone would get paid but we don’t so only the best do and rightfully so. Baseball is a trade like any other and it’s a way for those who are good at the trade to make some cash. I have played for money in past and have no problem admitting it. One time I needed some cash to pay for a wedding (in hindsight that could have been spent wiser) another time I needed cash during the offseason so I could continue training and working out and not worry about getting a job that would have interfered with my development as a player. Simply it’s a way for some guys to feed themselves and their families and I really don’t like the way numbers are thrown around here without any facts behind them. It would be great if we could all be loyal and stay at the one club forever but you can’t eat loyalty and a club is only as loyal as you are valuable to them. As for Brad being paid $5,000 maybe he is but I don’t know why he would take half of what I’m getting to go there p.s Hendricks and Kerr Chapman are also on board at the penguins.
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Post by perfeckt on Apr 1, 2013 19:57:30 GMT 10
Good post johne. It has made me think outside my box and I must say that after observing you at a game this summer as a spectator with (presumably) your son, I don't think you could have spent your money any wiser. Please excuse my presumption if I'm wrong. I do like your thinking in regard to some sort of program aimed at supporting people that have not made the 'Show' and consequentially the big bucks but have, none the less, provided younger up and comers (both here in Oz and those youngsters in the U.S. that got to see a mythical Aussie play) with inspiration to have a red hot go at their dreams and thereby help promote the game in a general sense. I have my own views on what is essentially an amateur sport in Australia at a club level but once again your post has and is making me look at this from a different viewpoint. Thanx and good luck.
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Post by Goblin on Apr 1, 2013 21:40:11 GMT 10
I'll give you 5000 reasons Cam... So what if it was $5,000 that got Brad to Heathmont? Guys like Brad devote their lives to being the best possible player they can be by sacrificing so much in an attempt to reach a dream. Often what is sacrificed is future employment opportunities. Players like Brad, myself and many others come back from the USA after being there a better part of a decade with great experiences and little else and nothing to add to resume. Where other guys we went to high school with have now finished a degree or trade and are now in the work force, we on the other hand are effectively 27 year old 18 year olds and that’s no attractive to employees. There is a real problem and lack of support structures in place for returning pro players. I wish the ABF would use the money they take from players signing bonuses and invest it in a post career program for the players they take it from. I’m unsure where it goes but I really can’t think of a better or more appropriate cause then investing in the player’s futures. A program that helps guys get into Uni, get a trade, enter the work force and basically just make the difficult adjustment to civilian life, but I have digressed a little. Back to Brad and any other player for that matter, so what if they get paid? The best players deserve to be paid, if baseball had the money local football does then everyone would get paid but we don’t so only the best do and rightfully so. Baseball is a trade like any other and it’s a way for those who are good at the trade to make some cash. I have played for money in past and have no problem admitting it. One time I needed some cash to pay for a wedding (in hindsight that could have been spent wiser) another time I needed cash during the offseason so I could continue training and working out and not worry about getting a job that would have interfered with my development as a player. Simply it’s a way for some guys to feed themselves and their families and I really don’t like the way numbers are thrown around here without any facts behind them. It would be great if we could all be loyal and stay at the one club forever but you can’t eat loyalty and a club is only as loyal as you are valuable to them. As for Brad being paid $5,000 maybe he is but I don’t know why he would take half of what I’m getting to go there p.s Hendricks and Kerr Chapman are also on board at the penguins. www.essendonbaseball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/like.gif{/img]
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Post by MF on Apr 2, 2013 6:21:21 GMT 10
I wish the ABF would use the money they take from players signing bonuses and invest it in a post career program for the players they take it from. No disrespect intended, but ... isn't this what the players should be using their signing bonuses for themselves?
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Post by theolderiget on Apr 2, 2013 7:13:00 GMT 10
The "salary" for Rookie Ball (in 2010) was $850 per month. The salary doesn't begin until the season's first game and ceases with the playing of the last game. Out of the salary you have to find accommodation, feed yourself and most likely run a cheap car. The majority of kids who sign do so for tens of thousands - not hundreds of thousands. Without parental support the signing bonus (plus plenty more) is exhausted well before the young men are ultimately released.
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Post by stockley on Apr 2, 2013 8:31:22 GMT 10
The players making a choice to follow their dreams and go overseas to play baseball are doing just that. Making a choice.
It is not up to the community to suddenly take care of them when they return from America without a trade. Its up to the player to make the choice to try for the big leagues, and if not, try and work out a fall back plan.
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Post by wako on Apr 2, 2013 8:45:41 GMT 10
p.s Hendricks and Kerr Chapman are also on board at the penguins. Peter or Thomas?
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Post by johne on Apr 2, 2013 8:51:25 GMT 10
p.s Hendricks and Kerr Chapman are also on board at the penguins. Peter or Thomas? Thomas
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2013 8:55:15 GMT 10
The players making a choice to follow their dreams and go overseas to play baseball are doing just that. Making a choice. It is not up to the community to suddenly take care of them when they return from America without a trade. Its up to the player to make the choice to try for the big leagues, and if not, try and work out a fall back plan. I don't think JohnE is saying the 'community' should be looking after these ex-pro's, but it should come out of their own signing bonus? Also I think a fall back plan for most is "come home and get paid by a local club whilst finding a job which will let them have time off to play ACES to keep the professional dream alive.'
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Post by johne on Apr 2, 2013 8:56:01 GMT 10
The players making a choice to follow their dreams and go overseas to play baseball are doing just that. Making a choice. It is not up to the community to suddenly take care of them when they return from America without a trade. Its up to the player to make the choice to try for the big leagues, and if not, try and work out a fall back plan. This comment shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation. By your rationale we should scrap all welfare and un-employment benefits. I never once asked for the community to "take care" as you put it of the players when they return. Im asking that the ABF who now take a significant cut of every payers bonus to put a portion of it back in to the players. Of course its a gamble playing professional baseball, but its a worthy and enjoyable gamble. Im sure if you had of been offered the opportunity you would have jumped at it stockley.
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Post by stockley on Apr 2, 2013 12:26:28 GMT 10
This comment shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation. By your rationale we should scrap all welfare and un-employment benefits. I never once asked for the community to "take care" as you put it of the players when they return. Im asking that the ABF who now take a significant cut of every payers bonus to put a portion of it back in to the players. Of course its a gamble playing professional baseball, but its a worthy and enjoyable gamble. Im sure if you had of been offered the opportunity you would have jumped at it stockley. Yes, there probably is a complete lack of understanding about the situation from my perspective. Yes, if I had the chance to play in America, I would have jumped at the opportunity, not even looking twice. What I'm referring to about the community, is nothing to do with the wider community of Australia. It has nothing to do with welfare, or un-employment benefits. These are provided by a completely different entity that is in charge of ensuring people don't fall through the gaps. There a plenty of issues there too, but that's another argument for another time. What I am suggesting, is that it doesn't fall onto the head of the ABF, BV, or any other association - who's primary focus is running the sport of baseball in this country/state, etc, to facilitate the training and continued employment of athletes returning from America without an education or trade. To start with, I don't really agree with the ABF taking any cut of the signing bonus. I think that's a wrought. But even putting that aside, isn't the idea of that cut to help fund the high performance section of the sport in Australia? Provide the opportunities for kids to get signed to follow their dream, via programs such as the nationals, etc? And you want to take money away from that, to ensure that returning athletes can have a career. Some of these guys continue to play baseball for money after returning, having opportunities within the sport, overseas and locally. Some have skills already in action that they have developed over off-seasons to ensure they have a fail-safe. So what happens to their cut? And how much would the cut be? What would it actually provide? There isn't that much money for a guy who signs for $20,000 to get to play overseas, to then return and expect to have options laid out for him by the ABF. That's the governments job. Hell, at $20,000 - does he even contribute any of his signing bonus to the ABF, or does that fall under the minimum payment amount. So considering he hasn't put any money into the system, is it right that he gets part of someone else's signing bonus to help provide him with future employment?
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Post by pirates on Apr 2, 2013 13:42:00 GMT 10
I don't think paying any player is an issue if the club can afford it and that player can bring something to the club with his or her experience, to assist the players, not just on the field. I say that because if it’s just about the on field it probably won’t be a positive experience for both parties. Local Sport is about communities as much as it is about the on filed activities IMO.
re the players returning from a MLB contract, well I'd say they might have delayed rather than missed out on a apprenticeship or Uni degree. What young bloke cops a nice cash bonus as he finish's high school to put towards a car or a deposit on a house/flat and then is allowed to travel overseas for a few years with the chance to play in his chosen sport at the top level. I'd call that and unbelievable experience, at huge life experience that you don't get at Uni or at an apprenticeship unless you defer for a couple of years and pay your own way around the world. So you are not that much worse off in fact I'd say that these players have an opportunity to explore all sorts of career opportunities while overseas. I know what I would have liked to do if given talent and opportunity.
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Post by bobby on Apr 2, 2013 14:52:23 GMT 10
Great point Pirates, two very different situations. If a player signs for good signing bonus he will have more money than most apprentices will earn in 2-3 years, if the kid that signs and has his head screwed on he wont go and blow it on a expensive car that he wont need for 8 months of the year.
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Post by shoeless on Apr 2, 2013 16:14:46 GMT 10
IMO guys that get offered to be signed for under 6 figures should very seriously look at going to College, I know some guys like John did go to College, if they last the 4-5 years and get drafted great, if the come out early and great drafted great, the hard decision comes when they have to decide whether to come home in the offseason or go back to college. Also now that Australia has Open University as an option, I believe that some guy should take advantage of this option. Guys that get 6 figures + have some room to but not much.
I do think that the money that comes out of the signing bonuses should be used as an education/training fund - i.e if Harmo wants to be an apprentice then the ABF could add $100 p/w to his income to help with the needs of a mature aged apprentice (I know the government already does this but if the ABF does as well life would be alittle easier).
And I think if the clubs have the money then good luck to them. Pay who you see fit, it's your money "Ralph".
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Post by headinsand on Apr 2, 2013 18:54:51 GMT 10
A number of good points coming from experienced people but what you are forgeting is how will the ABF pay for the christmas party they put on in June/July for the staff ? If you take that money and re-train the players that got the money in the first place, who will pay ? Also how will they fund the "World Classic" trip ? Speaking of the "Classic", interesting to see Luke Hughes considering quitting baseball ! For mine that poses the question, did he really have the desire to be there in the first place ? Players getting on the plane injured and others with no real desire to be there or am I reading too much into this ?
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Post by oldmanriver on Apr 3, 2013 7:28:54 GMT 10
Reading this forum, looking for some sort of rumour on player movement, the theme sort of got shifted. There are some excellent points raised, but the end of the day, the player has made a life decision to play in America or pursue a working career. It shouldn't be upto the controlling sporting body to assist monetary to help the mid twenty something person find a career because he has come home from his adventure. Clubs will always offer money to players good enough to entice them to play for them, but lets be serious, people have choices to make that will effect the lives in the future and as somebody mentioned earlier, be smart with the signing on fee and that will set you up for when the dream ends and at least will give the returning player a buffer when he decides to join the workforce.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 8:29:41 GMT 10
I would have thought that the percentage of players aspiring to the highest level where good money can be made that 'make it' compared to all those that dont get there would have all players focussed on a career outside of baseball throughout that period of their life. That said, it is fantastic to see all of the above having the courage and capability of aspiring to live the dream.
Back to rumours (perhaps facts now) I hear B Grade VWBL will be 12 teams that split into 6 and 6 after they each play each other this year.
Interesting. Will make for some fascinating mid/late season conundrums for some clubs I expect.
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Post by farnt on Apr 3, 2013 9:32:15 GMT 10
Throw a line out and you never know happens! Why all the recruiting at Heathmont - is it just that suddenly everyone wants to play there? If this is the case then congratulations. You know a bit about how different clubs work Johne so perhaps you could enlighten us. Great year last year and thumped Research in the GF. Are people leaving? Four Aces last year plus Edwards, Harman, another Hendriks and Chapman and only person who has left (that I know of) is Hogan. Maybe it's just me, but if I was an up and coming youngster at the club I'd be in some ways pleased to see these players at training, but I'd also be a little shattered to see my pathway blocked for the next few years provided the players stay at the club of course. As Pirates said it can't just be an on field benefit. Johne there were probably 5000 people at Sorrento watching local footy on Saturday - that's why they can afford to pay. EFL and NFL have hundreds throwing their money over the bar weekly and payrolls of a couple of hundred thousand (at least at clubs like Balwyn and Heidelberg) so not really comparable. Runningbunt got any more?
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Post by shoeless on Apr 3, 2013 15:48:40 GMT 10
this guy is going to Heathmont too -
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Post by johne on Apr 3, 2013 18:26:59 GMT 10
Why all the recruiting at Heathmont - is it just that suddenly everyone wants to play there? If this is the case then congratulations. You know a bit about how different clubs work Johne so perhaps you could enlighten us. I can't speak for Brad but I will say 5k is not what he is getting. Hendricks was Heathmont before he went to the states and has simply returned. Kerr Chapman has moved to Melbourne and has a close friendship with President Daniel Mack. I now live 3 minutes from the ground and am looking forward to playing with some good mates. My point exactly! Because they have plenty of money not an eye is batted when a player is paid, but because we have less money much less money in fact some people do tend to make a big deal when the best guys get a little cash.
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Post by crogers20 on Apr 3, 2013 18:37:27 GMT 10
This may sound naive, but coming from a club that hasn't historically paid players*, is it actually legal to pay players?
Is this OK by BV constitution?
Are only some clubs able to do this? Ie, does it depend on how a club is set up?
If a club pays a player, are they liable for super, work cover etc?
What are the tax implications for a player? If they've previously held a position as a professional player, then they would struggle to classify the income as 'a hobby' for tax purposes?
*other than ensuring coaches don't incur any out of pocket expenses
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Post by farnt on Apr 3, 2013 19:33:08 GMT 10
I can't post the link but great article in the Australian Financial Review page 41 today and probably in The Age re David Hussey post cricket 'second innings'. Main points summarised being 1- Assume responsibility so be prepared and look ahead. 2- have a strong sense of your use by date, so planning is very important. 3- build your understanding of market needs, and 4-look for opportunities to build relationships. Find mentors and others who have transitioned.
And Shoeless - that guy hits too many ground balls to shortstop ;-)
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Post by legga27 on Apr 3, 2013 19:47:37 GMT 10
I think we need to get a few things into perspective here. Lets just say that facts and this proboard at times are not the best of friends. But this isn't unusual or unique to this forum. As a long time penguin, I can remember back in the early to mid 90's when Heathmont was allegedly paying a rose grower and carpenter $10k to play...I doubt we had $100 but that was the story bandied about. At this point, HBC have received only 2 approved clearances for players, and not one of those are mentioned in this thread. So, why is Johne coming to the Penguins. I will let him answer that but location, location, location and existing mates might be a clue. Josh played 5 years at HBC from the age of 13 (I think), and we are thrilled he has indicated he would like to play again, a quality guy and great player. Thomas, after speaking with him today, is relocating from Geelong to Melb because of work so that MAAAYYYYYY have a little to do with it. If Jimmy Brooks ever comes home, what kind of outcry and payment rumours will float around if he plays at Heathmont...seeing he started as a junior. So before everyone accuses the Penguins of doing nothing more than any other club is doing, that being to try and be as competitive as we can be, think about GMBC - a decade of continuing success and players of immense quality both coming to the club and within. Larde and the guys there have done a terrific job, and we are doing nothing more than trying to emulate this success - if we get half as successful I can happily retire the red headed helmet throwing beast and be satisfied with a job well done.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2013 20:18:04 GMT 10
crogers, you know that clubs can dress up player payments in whatever way that they like. And legga27, well said.
Modest payment can be easily accounted for as an honorarium covering travelling, uniform, telephone, internet, beer tab and other expenses. Such payments have been made by clubs for decades. A lump-sum payment to a player or a coach (in the range mentioned here) might create taxation implications, though it will be up to the player or coach whether or not he chooses to declare that as income. Even if he does, the chances are that an astute person will be able to write off the payment against other expenses in his work or business.
It would be a brave governing body (ruling out BV for now at least) that would have either the power or the inclination to intrude upon a club’s internal affairs for as long as the club is financial with the governing body.
To pay or not to pay is an age-old issue in amateur baseball clubs. The determination comes down to four factors.
1. If the club has the means to pay a certain amount for players/coaches without sending itself to the wall or without creating an unreasonable imposition on existing members.
2. If there is a reasonable expectation that the investment will lead to greater playing success or at least improvement of skills within a club and creation of an enhanced capacity to draw players and sponsorship.
3. If club administration is up-front with the membership and (importantly) if the membership is collectively happy for payments to be made.
4. If the club is confident that the quality of the paid players/coaches will be of longer-term benefit to the club.
Victorian baseball clubs have a limited capacity to pay, so we are not talking about absurdly high amounts of cash. The above considerations should always be taken on board, in the knowledge that the return may or may not be satisfactory.
It’s a funny thing, but after 25-30 years I still have people commenting on crazy, hypothetical payments made by a club that I previously administered in the MWBL. A club that won five A Grade flags on the trot – still a record I believe - with some of the very best players going around at the time. Even in relative terms, we paid next to nothing (Club Coach was on $ 1000 for the season, a couple of Australian pitchers earned 200-300 bucks for the season and A Grade players were refunded their subscriptions if they had paid them by mid-season).
All paid coaches and players were expected to attend club functions, to attend training sessions, to coach juniors, to umpire juniors, to mentor senior players and to perform other reasonable tasks to help with club development.
For several years that system worked wonderfully well. The key to its success, though, laid largely in the quality of the people who we were able to get on board – not the alleged amounts of money that were involved (which we didn’t have, anyhow).
That may be a lifetime ago, though I expect that nothing much has changed. If clubs have the financial capacity to pay for quality coaches and players to come on board, then it can certainly work for the betterment of the clubs and it can serve to help raise the bar for the standard of competition and the strength of our baseball leagues.
The key will always be in the quality of the individuals involved – not just as players (important as that is) but in their capacity to provide lasting value as club people.
Having said that, it is obviously tough for smaller clubs, those who have fallen on hard times, those in lower grades and those who do not have the capacity – financial or otherwise – to attract people of proven quality.
That is a fact of life, I would suggest. We should always be looking at the stars – as Wilde said – even when we feel we are in the gutter.
Best wishes to all MWBL clubs for this season. It is a wonderful baseball league, without any doubt the strongest and best winter competition in the land.
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