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Post by oldracer on Dec 23, 2012 0:26:41 GMT 10
Reg, there's no "Bingo" about it, long before any pro contracts are signed the players sign the ABF contract, in our case as part of the VIS baseball program so we parents and players knew well in advance, see my post above about opting out of the high performance program, that 5% is taken....2.5% to the ABF and 2.5% to the VIS. As a parent of 2 players that went to every state tryout, championship, national underage tournament, international championship, college baseball for 8 years collectively, I would happily pay the ABF fee. Without the ABF and the work they do both in Australia and Internationally, my sons would not have had the opportunity to showcase their skills through these tournaments and academy (I believe they fund part of the academy) hence be accepted anywhere in the world as hard working and skilled athletes. We also had occasion to require the ABF help in relation to a college problem. They are internationally recognised and respected, far more than anyone would imagine. Open your eyes, who "runs" basbeball in this country i.e instigates TBall programs, national tounaments, international representation etc if not the ABF. Whether they do it to our liking in all instances is debatable but they are the head body and in my personal experience have given my boys the opportunity of a lifetime. Our kids and parents should know what they are getting into when they join the state high performance programs, Matty Sheldon Collins spelled it out in no uncertain manner to us, I'm sure the same message is still portrayed, so again "No Bingo" Reggie.
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Post by mattnichol on Dec 24, 2012 7:54:11 GMT 10
I would like to comment on the legal issues raised in this forum and by Lewis Thorpe's situation. Before I do this, I would like to state that I believe a fee should be paid by MLB academy players to the ABF upon signing a professional contract. How much, I do not know, but I am sure there are people with more expertise on this matter and I will allow them to comment on the forum.
LEGAL ISSUES
The legal issue involving the ABF contract signed by Lewis is a little more complex than contract law. Yes, Lewis signed a contract, but two legal issues now exist from the contract:
(1) Is the contract, specifically the clause requiring 5% of a player's contract, an 'unfair' contract as per the common law and statute? (2) Is the ABF penalty for failing to pay the 5% an unfair and therefore an unlawful restraint of trade under the common law and the new Competition and Consumer Act?
5% FEE
The 5% fee. If an Australian Academy player (for example Glenn William in the 1990s) signed a contract with a signing bonus of $1 million, then 5% of this amount is starting to become a large number. A cap may be appropriate, such as 5% or a maximum of $x. Such a system would deal with some of the issues raised on this thread.
RESTRAINT OF TRADE
Compared to the United States (and even Europe) a small but consistent body of case law on sports contracts exists in Australia. AFL, soccer, cricket (from the World Series cricket days) and even baseball (a Canberra Bushrangers player) have been involved in litigation over contracts and terms. The issue is whether the ABF penalty is unfair, and consequently, an unlawful restraint of trade.
I have heard the ABF prohibited Lewis from playing in the ABL, the Under 18 National Youth Championships, Baseball Victoria sanctioned competitions, state/national representation and even playing in the minor leagues in the United States. I am not sure how much of this is correct, but it seems that at a minimum, he cannot play in Australia.
In similar cases on law on contracts in sport in Australia, the United States and Europe, courts determine if the restraint is necessary to protect the interests of the league/team. Prohibiting Lewis from all forms of baseball appears to be excessive and unfair. Consider the circumstances of Lewis signing the ABF contract: his age (a minor at the time), requirement for parental consent, whether Lewis was advised to receive independent legal advice, ability to negotiate the terms of the contract and the balance of power between the two parties (sign the contract or do not attend the academy).
Banning Lewis from baseball has extreme consequences on Lewis' ability to earn an income and to perform his job. If Lewis has not complied with the terms of his contract with the ABF, then he has breached his contract. Breach of contract is typically dealt with through monetary sum in the form of damages. An interesting question is whether the contract allows the penalty that has been imposed? If the ABF wants to enforce the contract, then they can seek relief from the courts. To ban Lewis from baseball (and therefore his job) as a means of forcing him to comply with a contractual term appears to be unfair (in a legal sense) and unnecessary. There is a possibility that the ABF's contract is voidable (this would allow Lewis to terminate the agreement) due to economic duress (effect of the ABF's penalty and the aim of acquiring the fee.
Matt
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Post by wyatt33 on Dec 24, 2012 11:03:47 GMT 10
Has it been mentioned that if a player goes throw the academy, but chooses a different career choice, are they required to pay back the fees?
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Post by oldmanriver on Dec 24, 2012 12:12:57 GMT 10
I am not really fussed about whether the contract is right or wrong, but I feel that if the ABF is going to grab money for nothing, they can at least reward the Summer/Winters Clubs with say, 10% of that fee to the Clubs that the player plays for.ie: If Doncaster is his summer/winter Club then they get the whole 10%. A reward for the Club and a chance to use the money developing more Juniors. Just a thought. I think the AFL still does something along those lines where the original Junior Club gets something when a player gets drafted and makes his Senior debut.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2012 20:20:36 GMT 10
"... money for nothing ..." - that's the key.
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Post by pirates on Dec 25, 2012 0:14:30 GMT 10
ok this the way it works from what i understand to be the facts..... yes it is 5% but split as follows 1% to the home club..2% VB....2% to ABF. the mlb academy cost is split 50%-50% with the ABF that's it. this story seems to be growing some sort of momentum which is point less for all parties concerned. no winners in this debate. for the sake of all parties concerned i think it should be let go to let the dust settle so the best outcome can be sorted.
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Post by farnt on Dec 25, 2012 20:28:47 GMT 10
ok this the way it works from what i understand to be the facts..... yes it is 5% but split as follows 1% to the home club..2% VB....2% to ABF. the mlb academy cost is split 50%-50% with the ABF that's it. this story seems to be growing some sort of momentum which is point less for all parties concerned. no winners in this debate. for the sake of all parties concerned i think it should be let go to let the dust settle so the best outcome can be sorted. Pirates do they split the 1% between Summer and Winter club? Winter is often and probably rightfully seen as the poorer cousin, though can be as influential.
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Post by pirates on Dec 26, 2012 8:53:22 GMT 10
good question I'll try and find out. Looks like its been a big learning curve for everyone.
The other part to your statement about the winter clubs opens up a few questions as well, nothing to do with thus situation though.
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oj
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Post by oj on Dec 26, 2012 17:34:40 GMT 10
Could any signed player make a 'donation' to the ABF/State or clubs and be a tax refund?
Just an idea or loophole maybe, throwing it out there. Stand to be corrected
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Post by bobby on Dec 26, 2012 19:21:11 GMT 10
No it would be able to be a donation as the signing fee would have already been taxed, as it would be classified as income.
OMR you mentioned the AFL and I think the difference here is that the AFL gives back to the clubs not the player, players don't get a signing bonus in AFL either.
I think one think that should be considered is any signing bonus is a in off payment, it is not a yearly wage.
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Post by oldmanriver on Dec 27, 2012 6:27:13 GMT 10
bobby, I believe that you are correct in that clarification about the AFL. But what I do believe is that it is a fixed amount regardless of the contract that is signed. This is where the money grabbing ABF could modify their procedure instead of taking a percentage where there is no level ground especially with the size of the signing fee.
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Post by bobby on Dec 27, 2012 7:44:49 GMT 10
I think that is correct about being a fixed fee OMR, the difference between the two is one comes from the player and one comes from the league/governing body.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 9:17:04 GMT 10
Bobby - the big difference is that the AFL essentially become their employer - and will in many cases make big bucks out of the signed players (employees) - that is very different to this situation.
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Post by oldmanriver on Dec 27, 2012 10:11:48 GMT 10
I suppose the question that now will get asked is, is it necessary to go to MLB Academy to be signed? Have all the recent signings all contributed to the ABF money grab? How many signings have come out of this Academy? Is Lewis Thorpe just unlucky or does he have a Manager who doesn't read the fine print? Does this prove that it is better to be signed outside the Academy instead of attending the Academy which I assume is by invitation.
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Post by oldmanriver on Dec 27, 2012 11:04:37 GMT 10
So Goblin, based on what you stated, the ABF and the local State body is basically acting as a pimp. Is this because of the almighty ABF player registration which they feel gives them ownership of all players. At what point did the ABF teach the player how to play the game. I am fairly sure that there are a multitude of unpaid coaches that have freely put their time into developing a player to reach the heights. Once again it is a case of all take and very little give.
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Post by bobby on Dec 27, 2012 12:59:51 GMT 10
Correct authentic,
OMR not all players that have been signed go to the academy for various reasons, two that come to mind are Ben Leslie and Sam Gibbons from vic. Ben went this year only after he was signed and Sam didn't go at all. So you can get signed I you don't go but I am not sure if anyone got signed as a teen that didn't go a national tournament?
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Post by oldmanriver on Dec 27, 2012 13:40:22 GMT 10
bobby, that is the point I was trying to discover, the Academy isn't the be all of end all, it is the tournaments where the majority of the players have been signed in the past. So is the Academy just a finishing school or a prepatory school before heading off to the land of promise and plenty, or is it a secondary chance to get signed if you don't get signed while playing a tournament.
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Post by bobby on Dec 27, 2012 13:51:35 GMT 10
I think it is all of the above OMR, it can also be a way of making an Aus team, if you are good enough you should get noticed no matter where you are playing....
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Post by larry42 on Dec 27, 2012 15:11:37 GMT 10
bobby, that is the point I was trying to discover, the Academy isn't the be all of end all, it is the tournaments where the majority of the players have been signed in the past. So is the Academy just a finishing school or a prepatory school before heading off to the land of promise and plenty, or is it a secondary chance to get signed if you don't get signed while playing a tournament. Is it a timing thing as far as signings with tourneys? If you were a scout would you put more purpose to a kid performing well in a national tournament or in the games at the academy where he is facing/pitching against the better kids day in day out? Whats the number of signed versus unsigned kids that go to the academy?
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Post by bobby on Dec 27, 2012 15:29:31 GMT 10
Lorry there probably isn't a clear cut answer, what you have to remember is a scout is a bit of a fortune teller, they are projecting what a young player will be in years to come....just because they sign a young man to a large signing bonus it does not guarantee them a path to the big leagues. It may help hem with getting a MLB club to offer them more opportunities but it will not giv them a free ride.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 15:45:37 GMT 10
Lorry there probably isn't a clear cut answer, what you have to remember is a scout is a bit of a fortune teller, they are projecting what a young player will be in years to come....just because they sign a young man to a large signing bonus it does not guarantee them a path to the big leagues. It may help hem with getting a MLB club to offer them more opportunities but it will not giv them a free ride. Got that right, no free ride thats for sure Bobby, how secure you are (initially at least) turns mainly on the amount you get up front I imagine, a mate of mine's son got a reasonable amount (sounded like heaps at the time but wasnt really) and it was a very rocky road full of pot holes but the dream was pursued nonetheless. This of course is the case for the majority of kids unfortunatly. Re 'getting noticed' I'd have thought most kids get noticed based on what they do or are doing at club level and then they are 'watched' and if the mechanics, persona, and potential are good the interest builds into invites (academy/squads etc) and the development and exposure builds even more. Then there is the 'sleeper' like one of your former boys at Doncaster 'bobby' who got signed out of the blue as I recall because he has a live arm as I recall.
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Post by bobby on Dec 27, 2012 15:52:55 GMT 10
It's pretty correct, teams are going to give a #1 draft pick more of a go than a kid signed out of Australia, there also used to be the old story about a certain amount of visa's so they would let one kid go for a cheaper option at times.
Live arm, not sure who that might be from Doncaster? Maybe T Besford?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 19:47:16 GMT 10
I was thinking Brendan McDonald about 5-6 years ago ?
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Post by bobby on Dec 27, 2012 19:51:14 GMT 10
I wasn't aware he was signed, knew he went to college but thought that was it?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 20:30:08 GMT 10
I wasn't aware he was signed, knew he went to college but thought that was it? Maybe it was - I remember whoever it was liked that he had a 'live arm' and good mechanics and they wanted to pitch him (back then when he wasnt really throwing).
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Post by bobby on Dec 27, 2012 20:34:07 GMT 10
You sure it wasn't Paul Weichard? He signed with the Braves as a pitcher?
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player
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Post by player on Dec 30, 2012 21:08:00 GMT 10
I heard today that there are - and there have been before - other signed players who have not made the required payment to the ABF.
Can anyone confirm this? And if it is true, why is Lewis Thorpe apparently being made a scapegoat?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 23:20:33 GMT 10
I heard today that there are - and there have been before - other signed players who have not made the required payment to the ABF. Can anyone confirm this? And if it is true, why is Lewis Thorpe apparently being made a scapegoat? At last - The Truth will set you free !!!!! Wonder what excuses the ABF supporters on this forum will now come up with in their defence?
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Post by oldmanriver on Dec 31, 2012 6:38:08 GMT 10
What would be more interesting is, if it is true about other signed players not making the required payment, what state are they from.
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Post by rhricho on Dec 31, 2012 7:42:56 GMT 10
I heard today that there are - and there have been before - other signed players who have not made the required payment to the ABF. Can anyone confirm this? And if it is true, why is Lewis Thorpe apparently being made a scapegoat? At last - The Truth will set you free !!!!! Wonder what excuses the ABF supporters on this forum will now come up with in their defence? Not sure how closely you've been reading, but it appears you have been with your blinkers on! it has been nominated a few times now Lewis' case was the one made an example of! Most have been saying also they don't agree with the 5% and it should be a flat fee, but nearly everyone agree - if you sign a contract, then live by it! Enjoy your New Years under your rock! Nobody thinks the ABF is a well run ship! But I will add, it makes me wonder how many sign contract of documents without reading any fine print first!
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