ABF getting in for its share?

[Deleted]

Forum members will have read or would have heard about Victoria’s Lewis Thorpe being deregistered by Australian Baseball Federation over non-payment of a percentage of the signing bonus that he received when contracted by Minnesota Twins in July of this year.

While I do not know the specific details and while the situation may be in the process of becoming resolved, this raises questions in regard to the signing of Australian professionals and the overall approach of the Australian Baseball Federation to its playing - and paying - members.

If $ 25,000 was indeed the amount said to be owing to the ABF, that represents something like 5% of the reported signing bonus. The percentage doesn’t sound like much but it translates to big bucks in this case.

The ABF would argue that Australian baseball has put sizeable resources into the baseball development of this young man, and others. And yes, that may be true – especially through the largely MLB funded Academy and the state programmes.

The same argument can apply to elite sportspeople – including Olympians – who have their training funded largely from the public purse.

Arguably it is reasonable that they should return some of that investment when and if they become successful in their particular field. After all, the HECS scheme requires that tertiary students funded under the scheme pay back the investment when they start earning at a certain level.

A HECS debt will in some cases not be paid back until a person is forty years of age, or even older. Plenty would argue that a similar system should apply in sport. Obviously it does with baseball signings, where the ABF has its hand out in cases such as this.

Should it apply to our signed professionals, though? And if so, is the percentage asked reasonable or over the top? Should the payment be pegged at a maximum level?

Importantly, how do we decide where the payment should go? Why to the ABF? Why not to the clubs and coaches and state organisations who have more directly contributed to a player’s development? And how would we break that down, given the range of persons who may have contributed in one way or another?

I am throwing this out there for discussion, not with any particular agenda.

[parentof3]

KC - the ABF forget how much this sport actually costs the parents before they even get to the Academy. A National tournament over Lewis' juniors would average out to around $3000 per year x that by 11 including his international tournaments and other trips along the way and that is a substantial amount of money his parents have already forked out - others also in the same boat!!! Teams from other countries that participate in the international tournaments pay very little $$$$ if any at all. Even the Italians did not have to pay to participate in South Korea. The MLBAAP Academy is funded by the MLB and is by invitation with the parents paying the balance. The Academy in Melbourne is also paid for by the parents.

I agree - if the money was going to back to the clubs who coached the kids then maybe this would not be such an issue. It should be capped. I know of one young man who's first time to the Academy was this year at the cost of his club that he signed with. Why then does he owe them any money?

Where is Lewis' payment for all the publicity he did for them this year???Any AFL Footballer that does publicity gets a massive appearance fee and in some cases around $5000 for a couple of hours work. Sure the agent gets a cut but hey that is still good money. Lewis and his agent did a lot of good for the sport in regard to publicity including the great article in the Good Weekend magazine. It also mentioned that there was over $2,000,000 worth of signings just in Victoria in the last 18 months. Well that is over $100,000 for the ABF for what and just from Victoria.

The ABF also does not take into account the tax that needs to be paid and also that the figure is in US $$ so it is in actual fact less that the amount specified in Aus $$. The ABF want their cut for all the hard work they have put in - the hard work has been put in by the young men themselves as well as their parents!!! Sure they have had some of the great Aussie coaches at the Academy but lets not forget the boys have talent and some like the Lewis Thorpe's of the world have exceptional talent. There are kids that have traveled the exact road that he has traveled and lets say get a bonus of $50,000. He has had the same opportunities as Lewis, same coaching, same trips etc and yet his fee to the ABF is $2,500. Where is the fairness in that??? Lewis is genetically blessed to be able to throw a ball hard and fast. Good luck to him!!! There would be plenty of people wishing their kid was able to do what Lewis can do and with the class that he seems to do it in. To punish him and also his club team, his state Under 18 team and The Aces is a joke and also detrimental to the game. We should be shouting from the rooftops about how good this kid and others are and what good they can bring to the game!!!

[Deleted]

This is a joke. The ABF do not deserve a penny from Lewis Thorpe or any other kid that is lucky enough to be signed.

Just what exactly did the ABF do for Lewis Thorpe? THEY invited him to the Academy for THEIR benefit so THEY could then pick him to represent Australia (and THEM) at international tournaments. That in itself is sufficient to repay them for their so called 'investment'.

The Academy is set up for the benefit of the ABF, not the kids. Sure the kids get plenty out of it but if the Academy was set up to benefit the kids then ALL kids would be invited.

The Academy is there to identify kids with potential. Those kids already have the ability otherwise they wouldn't be invited in the first place. That ability has been taught and developed at local club level with a bit of 'refinement' at state level.

The ABF are nothing but moochers. When they start putting back into baseball then we can talk, otherwise they can 'take a hike'.

[Game On]

I agree that the ABF should not get any money from Lewis. The kid has worked hard to get where he has and all the best to him. If there is anyone who deserves a percentage of his contract or bonus or whatever, is the relevant state for the training over the years at the state programs and the club which he trained at during all of his junior career. Here is some food for thought as per FIFA. I think they do the right thing in regards to young players signing professional contracts. The clubs are rewarded for their hard work.

Training compensation
1 Objective
1. A player’s training and education takes place between the ages of 12 and
23. Training compensation shall be payable, as a general rule, up to the age of
23 for training incurred up to the age of 21, unless it is evident that a player
has already terminated his training period before the age of 21. In the latter
case, training compensation shall be payable until the end of the season in
which the player reaches the age of 23, but the calculation of the amount
payable shall be based on the years between the age of 12 and the age when
it is established that the player actually completed his training.
2. The obligation to pay training compensation is without prejudice to any
obligation to pay compensation for breach of contract.
2 Payment of training compensation
1. Training compensation is due when:
i. a player is registered for the fi rst time as a professional; or
ii. a professional is transferred between clubs of two different
associations (whether during or at the end of his contract)
before the end of the season of his 23rd birthday.
2. Training compensation is not due if:
i. the former club terminates the player’s contract without just cause
(without prejudice to the rights of the previous clubs); or
ii. the player is transferred to a category 4 club; or
iii. a professional reacquires amateur status on being transferred.
44 ANNEXE 4
3 Responsibility to pay training compensation
1. On registering as a professional for the fi rst time, the club with which the
player is registered is responsible for paying training compensation within 30
days of registration to every club with which the player has previously been
registered (in accordance with the players’ career history as provided in the
player passport) and that has contributed to his training starting from the
season of his 12th birthday. The amount payable is calculated on a pro rata
basis according to the period of training that the player spent with each club.
In the case of subsequent transfers of the professional, training compensation
will only be owed to his former club for the time he was effectively trained by
that club.
2. In both of the above cases, the deadline for payment of training
compensation is 30 days following the registration of the professional with the
new association.
3. If a link between the professional and any of the clubs that trained him
cannot be established, or if those clubs do not make themselves known within
18 months of the player’s fi rst registration as a professional, the training
compensation shall be paid to the association(s) of the country (or countries)
where the professional was trained. This compensation shall be reserved for
youth football development programmes at the association(s) in question.
4 Training costs
1. In order to calculate the compensation due for training and education
costs, associations are instructed to divide their clubs into a maximum of
four categories in accordance with the clubs’ fi nancial investment in training
players. The training costs are set for each category and correspond to the
amount needed to train one player for one year multiplied by an average
“player factor”, which is the ratio of players who need to be trained to
produce one professional player.
ANNEXE 4 45
2. The training costs, which are established on a confederation basis for each
category of club, as well as the categorisation of clubs for each association, are
published on the FIFA website (www.FIFA.com). They are updated at the end of
every calendar year.
5 Calculation of training compensation
1. As a general rule, to calculate the training compensation due to a player’s
former club(s), it is necessary to take the costs that would have been incurred
by the new club if it had trained the player itself.
2. Accordingly, the fi rst time a player registers as a professional, the training
compensation payable is calculated by taking the training costs of the new
club multiplied by the number of years of training, in principle from the season
of the player’s 12th birthday to the season of his 21st birthday. In the case of
subsequent transfers, training compensation is calculated based on the training
costs of the new club multiplied by the number of years of training with the
former club.
3. To ensure that training compensation for very young players is not set at
unreasonably high levels, the training costs for players for the seasons between
their 12th and 15th birthdays (i.e. four seasons) shall be based on the training
and education costs of category 4 clubs. This exception shall, however, not be
applicable where the event giving rise to the right to training compensation
(cf. Annexe 4 article 2 paragraph 1) occurs before the end of the season of the
player’s 18th birthday.

[Game On]

sorry about the length of the post but it highlights that the ABF are doing the wrong thing by Lewis, the clubs and state organisations.

[wasonlyeverataxi]

Where does the funding come from the ABF?

[oldracer]

this is not uncommon and in fact if I can remember correctly, when the kids get to go to the academy they sign an ABF contract stipulating that they agree to hand over 5% of any sign on bonus. In our day that was split 2.5% to the ABF and 2.5% to the state high performance body, in our case the VIS Baseball program.
I guess if you don't like it, don't sign, don't go to the academy, don't represent Australia in Under age competititon world wide and don't get seen by the scouts that just might offer you half a mill to put pen to paper.
If... the figures are correct, the kid still has $475K.....yep, like I said, don't sign and possibly don't get the showcase that the journey may provide!!!!
And at the end of the day, this will possibly be the biggest payday of his career, I would be very happy with $475K, invest it, work ya bum off and see if you can get past the first couple of years.
If he can, he might get the payday and the thrill that hard work provides, very few do. You just may be lucky enough to have to pay the ABF $25K, I know heaps that would like to be in that position.

[oldracer]

sorry but what the hell has FIFA got to do with this situation!!!!

[oldracer]

Did the kid sign an ABF contract??

[oldracer]

another angle on this....no Academy, no international tounaments, no state tournaments, no coaching at the elite level hence no pathway to superstardom, there is then no drive to succeed or excel......chicken or the egg, the kid could probably throw a javelin a fair way, athletics would then be his go.
I find it very interesting that he can represent the Aces if he is in fact banned from club ball

[parentof3]

Players signed way before Academy - Williams, Lloyd, Spears, Johnston, Gourlay and the list goes on and on. Thorpe would have lost at least 5% on the exchange rate - there goes $25,000 in a heartbeat. Not to mention tax - their goes another wack. Who do you think funds the Academy. Not the ABF. It is MLB!!! I am pretty sure if he was to make it big time he would be more than happy to pay it back. The remaining money that he has left has to last a while because he will not go straight to a huge pay cheque each week. If you can live on it for 5 or so years good luck to you!!! These kids go over there for 6-7 months and then have to come back and try and get a job. Not a lot of people willing to give someone a job if they are not going to hang around. The other option - live off their parents - again!!! And yes he was named on the roster this week but has now been removed and is deregistered!!! No playing baseball in this country!!!! What a waste of a wonderful young talent!!!!!

[oldracer]

PO3 well most of those you mentioned pre academy did reasonably well on te exchange rate, luck of the draw so that doesn't enter the equation. You seem to know the situation, I'll ask again, did he sign an ABF contract, I can assume he did otherwise this would all be a moot point.
I am very aware of the cost of funding the overseas baseball journey as I am aware of the cost of competing internationally, intrastate and interstate.
If the player has true aspirations of being successful, the sign on is not the Holy Grail, if it is then SEEYA!! he will not make it.
Bottom line, the player has talent and signs a good contract, pay the dues that has been committed to, get on with the next stage which is far far harder than anything he has endured so far and if....if he can get past the first few years intact, he may be in a position where this stage in his career is a very distant memory.
Like I said, there are probably hundreds of Australian junior baseballers that would love to be in this position.
Have a real good look around, there are far worse scenarios in the world than having $475K US!!!!!!

[oldracer]

"Thorpe would have lost at least 5% on the exchange rate - there goes $25,000 in a heartbeat. Not to mention tax - their goes another wack."

The first part is up to his agent, take all the scenarios in to account, but certainly don't sook over exchange rate. If you're paying tax you're doing ok, as someone once said, many aren't and likewise aren't doing ok....

Can of coke and a hotdog, guess that goes by to the keeper as well.

[Game On]

it just demonstrates how grassroots clubs benefit from training young kids and helping them on a pathway to become a professional. I would prefer the money going back to the clubs that have helped them since they were a kid rather than going JUST to the ABF. Just making a comparison.

[pirates]

A couple of points that should be considered. The scout that signed this young player is a very very experienced scout. He would be very aware of the local requirements so why is that the parents are taking this really pathetic stance. Would he have signed for $50k or $100k absolutely, I would think, the end amount was due to a few scouts who went out of control. I'm assuming that every other player signed over the years has paid this contribution. This is just poor handling by the boys management. Talking about tax......we all pay tax. When he does get over to the US he will have expenses paid for him albeit a small allowance, the money he has received is signing bonus and if properly invested he will have a huge nest egg waiting for him when he returns from his amazing adventure. Who ever is advising him needs to get a grip because the ABF will never backdown on this as they would never be able to enforce this part of their contract with future signees. That said lets hope that it gets sorted so the kid can focus on the more important issue of enjoying his baseball without this distraction so he can have every opportunity to take his baseball to the next level.

[rhricho]

All points as I see this and with no direction or order either.

Has anyone thought that a signed player attracts players to their club?
Does your club have a scout that gives your talent the exposure to cover these ideas above??
If you sign a contract at the academy then stiff!
Also at the other end if the player is that good and perhaps make the Aus team, then all is covered, perhaps players should pay their own way at this end??

How many talented kids at your club never went to the academy and never did anything???

Lastly I'd say this kid has now given himself a bad name and may not get the push or further assistance he may need!
Good luck to him and I understand the viewpoints above, but like a lot of ppl now days - the bigger picture is always lost and the immediate hey that's not fair comes into play!

[Deleted]

Im fine with there being a contribution back into the sport for some of the reasons mentioned above. Im not so sure however that the ABF deserve it though on a number of levels and am more concerned that it gets frittered away in some cases

The exchange rate arguement is irrelevant.

The apparent attempt to breach what I assume was a signed contract/agreement would be very poor form and a resuilt of poor advice.

And the flat rate of 5% is probably fair given what I believe is the pathway provided for our good kids that gets them this opportunity so long as it goes back into funding that same pathway for the next batch of kids.

[bobby]

One point I would like to make about this is this, did the ABF/Academy put more time into a kid that signs for $500k, a kid that signs for $20k or a kid that doesn't sign? I think not, I think a flat fee would be better, good luck to a kid that signs either way. Don't forget these kids and their parents pay for the academy, state academy's, state teams and even national teams, most of the time it is over $2k each time (except for state academy).

Let not forget the big loser in this is L Thorpe, who knows what impact this will have in the long term.

[rhricho]

Yeh your right the signing fee isn't relevant but the exposure is.
If someone said to you pay the $k's to give your kid a shot as he does have just that, an then if he does sign this exposure he has been given has to be rewarded - I'd do it for my kid!
This is the stage bobby! Not club ball. No band got signed out of a jam studio!
Scouts will be watching for attitude as well as ability!
I'm sorry but I see it as - u make your bed lie in it! Nobody owes any individual anything, they are giving them a chance tho to the next level! Club ball doesn't do this!

[rhricho]

I think pirates - you got it 100%
That's the big picture right there!

Nobody In their right mind thinks the abf is perfect, but as it has been said. This 5% not paid may just have cost him a lot more!

[oldracer]

glad I'm not selling real estate for you Bobby, not too many scenarios where one fee fits all.
Now I'm not too sure that L Thorpe has instigated this, so those that are advising him are doing a woeful job as this may be seen from afar as a big red flag going forward. I hear you fart in Moonee Ponds and they know about it in the US a few hours later....

[bobby]

Maybe so Oldracer but can you justify that if a kid signs for less than $20k he owes them nothing whereas a kid that signs for $500k owes $25k? Both kids have been coached at the same level and made the same teams? Nothing to do with realestate at all, agree with the you with regards to a flat fee situation. I was just putting it out there as an example.

Be assured that Lewis is not the only player in this situation, he was the first to be banned and made public.

[pirates]

just wanted to add to my post that I'm 100% sure this is not a situation that the young player has brought up.
A lot of fine print for a 17 year old to understand the full complexity of not just the contracts but the enormity of the amount of money. Then to see a $25,000 fee and other costs come out becomes reality check. The bonus is a massive pay check for anyone let alone a 17 year old imo for Australian standards. It really needs handling properly so the player gets the most benefit from this bonus. It really should be left to others to sort out and let the kid do what he does best and grow without this added distraction.

I don't know how the whole thing came to this but I do believe that the responsibility should not be just on the family but the ABF and the scout/MLB club to make sure that the player is guide properly through this maze and advised accordingly with respect to how it works and best way to deal with player payments. Taking the fee would be part of the ABF's contract but I believe they owe the player further assistance and guidance in respect of a whole range of duty of care issue particularly financial. Everyone should make a concerted effort to resolve this issue. And who alerted the press.

[Deleted]

pirates, the story appeared in the Herald Sun on Friday. It was written by a Melbourne Aces media person.

I brought it up here because it is clearly of interest to the Australian baseball community.

I agree with you on the need for this situation to be handled promptly and sensitively. Let us hope that all parties can work towards a resolution so that the lad is allowed to get on with what he was signed for - to play baseball, not to sit out of the game in his own country.

[bobby]

Great point by both Pirates and KC....

I agree it's a shame that the story was written by an Aces staff member, we are screaming out for some press but negative press is not going to help. To many good stories in baseball at the moment that go unreported.

[gj]

Bottom line here - if he signed the contract that said 5% of signing bonus then he owes it.
If he didn't sign it, I can't see why the ABF are going after him.
The reference to soccer is not a bad one - every club through a kids progression is rewarded every time they take a step up. Our clubs get nothing. Even the AFL pays the junior club of draftees a fee.

[regg44]

Putting aside this issue as clearly the contractual circumstances have a major bearing on the ultimate outcome, perhaps consider the morals of this issue.

Young players across our country develop initially from work put in at club level, where they actually pay to play and are coached by people who volunteer their time.

When their talent is identified and they make state squads their parents again pay for the privilege of the boys representing their states (and yes having the opportunity to be seen by scouts), but it costs the families. Oh and generally they are again coached by people who are not paid either.

Then if they are good enough they make a national team and again the parents have to pay for this honor. The ABF dont fund the trips, the parents pay.

The academy is not funded by ABF bit by MLB and based on a prior post also has a user pay component.

So through all this journey the parents keep putting their hands in their pockets over and over and over again, not I would think with any thought that their sons will be MLB players, but rather just to give their kids the chance to compete at the highest level.

Then they get an opportunity to sign a pro contract and bingo out comes the grubby little paws of the ABF for their percentage. Pure greed by an organization over the past few years has shown that commercial interests are more important than the players ( the Lismore nationals debacle) and financially inept ( the loss of how many millions of dollars in the failed investments made)

Keep your grubby mits off the money these kids and their families have worked hard to earn and you have done nothing for.

[oldracer]

just thinking about this again today, the $25 K is actually a tax deduction so not as bad as first thought.
there have been other players that have opted out of state programs so as to avoid the ABF payment
a contract with a set fee percentage is just that, a set fee and I have no problem with the ABF getting their money at whatever level it equates to as without them, there would be no state/international competition for these players to showcase themselves.
As to the point of each player receiving the same level of coaching, I disagree as the stud will always attract the upper level pitching/hitting/fielding coach and it gets lesser further down the depth chart you go. Has to as there is only so much time can be devoted to each player so it is natural the attention diminishes. I have seen it at state and at the academy. If you really think about it, how much attention does the starter for the thirds get at your club from the head coach/pitching coach, yep nada...same applies further up the chain, in my opinion, so pay up and get on with it because it's a tad embarrassing for the kid.

[Deleted]

regg44 - At last someone has got to the crux of the matter. Well put!!!

Yes, legally he must pay the money if he signed the contract. But that doesn't make it right. I would like to know just what, exactly, does the ABF do for baseball in this country, other than collect fees from every player who plays the game and a percentage of signing bonuses?

[Deleted]

'Reg' I agree with much of what you say about the ABFs grubby little hands and track record of frittering $s and perhaps not deserving much at all here BUT Im not so sure about the arguement many are making to do with 'parents have to pay this and that'

I mean most of us parents pump $1-2+k every year in for our kids for Gym, Dancing, Sport etc with little or no expectation of that going off into any sort of professional pursuit, so that arguement doesnt really work for me tbh mate.