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Post by larry42 on Oct 16, 2012 8:14:16 GMT 10
There must be a better way than playing 5 games, and in some instances 4 games of qualifying junior baseball before the Competition season starts.
I understand that it is difficult for the decision makers to be able to place club teams in specific competitions prior to a start of a season, especially as teams can dramatically change from one year to the next. (kids moving up in age group, dropping off, maybe some of the signed pros at the higher level being shut down)
But there are some pretty big concerns on a couple of fronts in these early rounds when you try and balance out a pool with an inbalance of teams.
First and foremost, there is a safety issue here for some of these young kids, especially the 12's and 14's who are new to the game and having to play games against some of the traditionally strong junior programs. I coach an U12 team and the first two weeks i have been more concerned with the safety of some of the opposition kids, especially the pitcher and corner infileders. I accept that baseball is a dangerous game and anyone can get hurt in any situation or game, but the prospect increases massively when you have completely new players playing against some of the better kids in that age group. In our first game the 3rd sacker got drilled while not watching the play and was lucky that the ball hit him in the glove which was in fornt of his body and took most of the sting of the shot. One foot higher and thats a shot to the face.
The other secondary concern is for the young, inexperienced teams having to come against at least 2 maybe 3 strong clubs and getting their bums handed to them. Yep, some will argue that its only a couple of games at the start of the season, however if you are a club with an 8 or 9 year old completely new to the game, never played before, asked to play 3B and then have to dodge line drive after line drive while the opposition rack up 25-30. Would have thought that first or early impressions mean a lot for kids to stay in the sport, and getting lit up two out of two or two out of three isn't my idea of a good first impression in the sport. As a young team it just doesnt give you a chance to get any footing at all.
Just my take on it. i know there is a lot of grey area here, but i wouldn't think there is any grey area when it comes to safety and duty of care.
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Post by wyatt33 on Oct 16, 2012 9:07:45 GMT 10
Well as one of the clubs on then receiving end of said thumping a, I'm just not sure there should be any grading games. We went to baseball Vic and said we have an experienced team, and we have a rookie team, made up of 8, 9, and ten year olds with two a bit older, but with zero baseball experience. We only have two players with a years precious experience. They decided to put mulgrave b against waverley a, upwey a, melb berwick and Blackburn, all fairly strong junior clubs. Now surely the better teams aren't getting anything out of winning 28-1 and 17-1? We didn't even get an out on Sunday! Training is basically teaching the kids how to throw and catch for an hour. It's that basic. But the powers that be feel they need to grade these teams. Luckily my kids understand that they are grading games, and they are having a good time believe it or not. They celebrate the little things like walks and good throws. It's frustrating showing up, knowing they are going to get there bums handed to them, but to the kids credit they are getting involved and enjoying the experience.
But at some stage the process that Larry is talking about, has to be looked at. I'd hate to see a kid walk away disillusioned because of a fixturing issue. We can't afford it as a baseball community, and god knows I don't want my son to turn to cricket!
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Post by chixdigthelongball on Oct 16, 2012 9:34:24 GMT 10
As a player that has been around the sport for a long time, but new to the coaching caper this is an area that needs addressing, especially at U12 level. I wholeheartedly agree that the current system of grading is not in the best interests of the kids. Surely the coaches/clubs have a better understanding of the capabilities of their lists, rather than the subjective grading system that can come down to luck of the draw, ie draw the "strong clubs" in your grading games with a new team and you will very quickly lose the interest of players and parents alike. And given the huge commitment of travel very early on a Sunday morning, cricket etc becomes a much more attractive option to all concerned.
IMO, Baseball Victoria should divide the metro area up Geographically, to minimize travel, have the clubs/coaches nominate which division, within their geographical location they wish to play in, and then have the option to re-nominate after say 5 games, if you find you are out of your depth, or conversely, more competitive than you initially thought. At the end of the season have the Divisional champions, N,S,E,W, play off for the overall title.
In this age group (U12), you may only get one opportunity to get the "buy in" from parents/kids for them to decide that Baseball will be their sport of choice, and getting smashed for a month, whilst travelling all over the Vic Metro region is not all that attractive.
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Post by wyatt33 on Oct 16, 2012 10:28:48 GMT 10
It can't be that good for the winning sides either. What do they get out of a 30 run win? Percentage? Bragging rights? It's grading for them too, but sometimes it's just not worth it.
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Post by larry42 on Oct 16, 2012 11:37:34 GMT 10
Damo - your right with winning teams as for their development but in my opinion its the least of the factors in this case.
1. Safety. Example, young Shelby playing 3rd base on sunday v the Waverley A team. One ball went foul down the 3rd base line and i dont reckon she had moved her glove by the time it went past her. And i was in line with her. As i said we had a kid drilled the week before at 3B too as he wasnt watching.
2. Keeping young kids in the game who are new to the sport.
I know the reasoning behind it wheras they want the divisions to sort themselves out to then play Major, AAA and AA.....BUT Mulg B with their assortment of new kids shouldn't have to play teams like Wav A or Melb A.
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Post by sueridgpipe on Oct 16, 2012 12:49:48 GMT 10
When i was growing up playing juniors at Moorabbin and Mulgave we played a friday night centre and the team that played sunday was a collection of the better players in that age group from 12's and 14's. That way you had the best players playing sunday in the COCA COLA LEAGUE and the less talented kids stayed at friday nights.
Much better system back then, where the club chose the players to play sunday and wasnt a case of everyone sundays.
Mind you having said that and political correctness the way it is nowadays little Johnnys mum who thinks the sun shines out of his clacker would probably carry on about why he is not playing sunday with the good kids.
CHANGE IT BACK TO THAT SYSTEM I SAY!
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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 16, 2012 13:54:16 GMT 10
Well pipe my boy, I may very well been your COCA COLA coach. The system that BV use for grading is well and truly flawed. I would have thought after last year that a promotion relegation system should have been put into place. The grading system being used at the moment does allow for possible tanking(heaven forbid) to allow teams to have a shot at the flag in a lesser competition.(I have seen this done before). There is a very simple solution to grading, if there are multiple teams from the one club, the A team into the top grade and the B team in the grade best suited as cjosen by the Club. In other words, nominated.
These grading games are a complete waste of time. Just make the season a 16 game fixture and be done with it.
After anybody reads this, please accept that I am not including all teams in the tanking scenario.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2012 15:03:51 GMT 10
Im not overly close to this issue but is there also the sceanrio occuring at the moment at some clubs where the parents are often the Coaches of these Junior teams, and some of the better kids end up being split between two teams in the same age group because the parents are each are needed to Coach/Assist two different teams and of course want to be involved with their own kids ??
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Post by tigertails99 on Oct 16, 2012 16:52:55 GMT 10
I like this forum but I think that whilst we are in this area and I have seen from both sides of the fence, as a player and as a coach, is there is anything or ideas that can be forwarded to BV so that we can make our junior competition better.
I am sure that with the great collective of coaches, players and administrators that get on this fourm that there is at least 3 or 4 or more ideas about how to fix the juniors so that participation can increase.
Does anyone know the results of the participation survey?
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beaverball
Junior Member
hey fungo im sandra dee
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Post by beaverball on Oct 17, 2012 12:32:43 GMT 10
When reading the forum members replies to the imbalance of junior games, those who have the power to change should be looking at the system they implemented.
Gents, it seems that some members at BV need to leave their egos at the office, listen and learn from those been at the coal face of the competition, embrace change for the better, and move on to a fairer and equatable grading solution.
Playing each week in a scenario where clubs can play each other around the same abilities is achievable.
The first round robin games is clearly outdated in it's present form.
Having clubs nominate their preferred level of competition pre season is a good start.
Yes, there's been history of some clubs' easier approach of nominating their teams in weaker divisions.
A cut off round into the season to adjust the divisions ( if required ) would be made, if lower grade teams were seen to be playing well above the standard of that grade.
Any club who made the call to play in a higher division and perhaps not going to plan, could be adjusted as well.
The discretion of those at BV would adjudicate any movement between divisions.
It would be beneficial to those at BV to sight some games where the above clubs may be involved.
It would give the impression that a thought process is backed up by practicality.
Is this the total answer, maybe not, but leaving the present format is irresponsible.
Cheers...................Beaver
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Post by The Puma on Oct 17, 2012 12:47:06 GMT 10
^^^ did you read that tigertails?
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Post by wyatt33 on Oct 17, 2012 13:12:47 GMT 10
I'd suggest that they get it right 90 % of the time. The issue I've referred too is probably largest in under 12's when we have teams with no history at all. If its happening at under 18 level, then clubs are clearly taking advantage of the situation.
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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 17, 2012 13:33:43 GMT 10
Wyatt, this is the third or fourth year I have experienced this grading formula and it is just pure crap. It is obvious which teams will be strong and which teams will struggle. Why waste
time finding out who are the top six sides. and the next six sides there after. from there you go to promotion and relegation for the ensuing years. As for the under 12. You could split it into a top age and lower age competition, I do agree with you that it is difficult at the U12 stage.
Rant over, backto work.
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Post by The Puma on Oct 17, 2012 14:14:43 GMT 10
Wyatt, this is the third or fourth year I have experienced this grading formula and it is just pure crap. It is obvious which teams will be strong and which teams will struggle. Why waste time finding out who are the top six sides. and the next six sides there after. from there you go to promotion and relegation for the ensuing years. As for the under 12. You could split it into a top age and lower age competition, I do agree with you that it is difficult at the U12 stage. Rant over, backto work. Just a thought, why not at the start of each season play a series of grading games. Along the same lines as the Junior section. Then you may get a more even competition.. IE: take the team entries and split them into groups and then play 5 games or whatever it takes and hopefully you finish up with proper gradings unless somebody tanks.  |
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Post by farnt on Oct 17, 2012 15:17:54 GMT 10
Could clubs put an open nomination as to whether they want their junior team in say Div One or Two to BV pre season - they then collate and circulate to all clubs to review and the clubs individually agree to then accept or reject each one?
F'rinstance, if only eight clubs nominate for the top level and there are no objections from other clubs we're off an running. If ten nominate, and six of these clubs are unanimously 'granted' acceptance by the other clubs and four are deemed 'questionable or debatable', then the first three weeks those four teams play each other to ascertain which two get 'accepted' into the top grade, with their points carried through.
The original 'accepted' clubs can start their season straight away, with the two late entries slotting in. Yes, it will not be an even playing of games but can't win them all. The two teams that don't make it through fall into the second division and whilst they don't necessarily bring points, they are probably strong enough to win more than they lose over the rest of the season to till be contenders.
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Post by Coalmined on Oct 17, 2012 18:52:37 GMT 10
Interesting twist to the junior grading games. Clubs involved are not important to the story. Young man cleared to club B long before the start of the season. For whatever reason club A neglected to lodge the clearance paperwork. Club B told by BV that a win they have collected during the grading games may be stripped. Club A lodges the clearance with a letter explaining it was their fault the clearance was not lodged. Obviously a mistake was made by club A and they tried to rectify it.
In all this how does club B get stripped of a win in a grading game which may have them end up playing the wrong division as a result? The clearance was always to be lodged nothing untoward. How does stripping the club of a win help grading?
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jrj
Junior Member
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Post by jrj on Oct 18, 2012 8:40:45 GMT 10
Club B should have checked that said paperwork had been lodged.
(always check the paperwork before letting players take the field).
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Post by gj on Oct 18, 2012 10:24:24 GMT 10
I think the point of coal index post was the grading rounds are supposed to tell which teams should be ranked where. The clubs should have ensured the paperwork was in order but this should not affect the gratings.
Find another penalty
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Post by larry42 on Oct 18, 2012 10:25:46 GMT 10
There generally are a lot of teams grouped together of the same level, however U12 and U14 level to play Majors i believe we can nominate prior. We shouldn't be in a position where we are allowing strong teams to play against obvious lesser teams. And the main point i stress with this is because of the safety issues with young or inexperienced kids in the game. We've had a couple of close calls already but we shouldn't be in a situation where very good U12 or U14 teams are playing against obviously weaker junior teams. When the fixture is done at the start of the year what is expected when a strong A team is playing another clubs B team.
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Post by aueagle30 on Oct 18, 2012 12:13:57 GMT 10
Gents, it seems that some members at BV need to leave their egos at the office, listen and learn from those been at the coal face of the competition, embrace change for the better, and move on to a fairer and equatable grading solution. Beaver, as a member of the committee that oversees these decisions, I assure you no ego was involved in making the decisions. And I can equally assure you, the members of the committee have each spent many years at the coal face of both junior and senior baseball. Unfortunately, the passage of time can sometimes create some misunderstanding about why our current situation is what it is. The grading system was reintroduced three seasons ago after clubs complained too many teams were not nominating their teams appropriately (not just down, but some teams were nominating up for the benefit of one player and then being uncompetitive). After the first couple of seasons, more complaints were lodged that quality teams weren't given a fair chance of competing for Div 1 because too many 'good' teams were being placed in the same grading division. This undoubtedly puts pressure on the office to create uneven divisions for grading (I can't confirm this as fact, but have made this assumption from looking at the grading divisions this year and the lopsided results). The current system is very much a product of trying to create a system to overcome the concerns of the clubs. Do I like seeing the lopsided results... no. Do I like hearing of kids being in danger... no. Is the system the correct system moving forward... it would appear unlikely. Is it the egos of the SLC and BV that created the system and refuse to change it... absolutely not? What is the answer to creating the a better system... I honestly don't know yet, but I'm taking note of the ideas here and I'm sure this issue will be discussed further. |
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scam
Junior Member
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Post by scam on Oct 18, 2012 12:47:16 GMT 10
Club B should have checked that said paperwork had been lodged. (always check the paperwork before letting players take the field). Completly agree with this point, you will find that Club B realised that the process by Club A and Baseball Vic had not been followed on the Monday morning and were the ones who made contact with BV to notify them of the situation. They accepted that they had made an error in playing a technically "illegal player". The main point made during this advice was that these were grading games and the point of these is to ensure the team ends up playing in the grade most suitable to their playing level. We won't know for 3 more games if the penalty imposed will potentially affect this decision. In saying that though, the clearance process according to the By-Laws and Playing Conditions only requires the receiving club to send a letter of intent. All other requirements of a clearance are the responsibility of the releasing club, the player and Baseball Vic. I would be interested to know that given the receiving club has been penalised for playing an "illegal player", I wonder what penalty has been imposed upon the club releasing the player for breaching the By-Laws and Playing Conditions in relation to finalisation of the clearance and submission to Baseball Vic? Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to say that Club A should be punished too but if there are some By-laws etc that aren't going to be enforced, what's stopping clubs from taking advantage of this on purpose? I know we've taken the stance over the past few years that if a player wants a clearance to play at another club we will approve this (as long as financials are ok), however there is currently nothing stopping us from saying "yeah, no worries, you can have the clearance" however then failing to send the final paperwork in for it to be processed. Interesting scenario and given there has been a few clearance discussions on this thread and as I have read it some ill-feeling between clubs/people I wouldn't want to be leaving this loophole open for abuse. Moving on, thanks for your understanding larry42 in relation to our B side. Wyatt33 and I have had numerous discussions about his side and when we saw the draw knew that we just had to battle through the first 5 games. As long as the kids still have fun and improve from week to week, we can't ask for anything more. The key point is that we are proud that we have introduced around 15 brand new kids to our great game (plus 150 others involved in our TBall gala days in conjunction with local primary schools). If we can continue to sign-up 12 new 9/10 year olds each season to our U12's, make sure they have fun and return year after year, then all the hard work will be worth it when we have 6-8 junior teams on a Sunday morning in the near future. |
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Post by larry42 on Oct 18, 2012 13:07:22 GMT 10
Nate
Terrific post as expected. As a junior coach for some years now, i can understand the issues that BV are presented with each year and i don't think that a perfect solution will ever be achieved. The goal posts move so much each year with teams and programs, and for all the reasons you have stated why clubs nominate for certain divisions also make it an annual difficulty for BV.
I don't believe that it has anything to do with egos, not for one minute.
I believe that the groups are structured to suit that the top 2 teams stand out so 10 teams fit nicely in to Major League, then the bottom 3 or 4 figure their way in to AAA east and west.
Week 1 - i saw my best hitter line drive a ball in to the glove of a kid playing 3B. Kid wasn't watching play and he was lucky, the glove which just happened to be there, took the force of the blow. One foot higher thats a face or throat shot without and carnage. I have even more concerns with the pitcher who ends up about 42-43 feet away when the ball is released. I understand this can happen anywhere and any game at any level, and you would have to agree that the chances rise quite a lot when its a high level team playing a much lower level team. I can tell you now, i've walked away from the first two games thankful that the opposition has got through the games.
And thats without touching on the fact that participation of new players to the sport would be in the line of fire playing in these types of games. We already know how tough it is to get kids in to the sport, how many kids does Hubes have to run clinics for before we see one child register at a club?
hopefully over the course of this year some good points can be put forward and BV and the SLC can work with clubs to get the grading system closer to being right.
Keep fighting the good fight.
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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 19, 2012 9:00:15 GMT 10
Puma, Like most things, you have taken pieces from two forums and tried to make a point.
To make it easy for you, what could be right for one league doesn't mean it is right for the other league. In other words, in its context if read it would make sense.
But I note, that you make no point.
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Post by oldmanriver on Oct 19, 2012 15:38:27 GMT 10
Just been informed that a Demonic bunch of U/18's have pulled out of the comp. Just makes a mockery of grading games at this level. Only good thing is I get a sleep in. Then stupidly we have to play a side we played and beat last week. Commonsense nil, stupidity one.
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Post by Coalmined on Oct 19, 2012 20:18:56 GMT 10
OMR
Obviously Puma, myself and others missed that smiley/wink tongue in Cheek symbol that people manage to put on here.
If a system is floored it is floored.
As for the demonic team pulling out. Heaven forbid a club try there hardest to get a team on the field. (Unfortunately things don't always go to plan.) lucky you found out already and didn't find out at 8 am Sunday morning.
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Post by concernedcitizen on Oct 20, 2012 21:08:36 GMT 10
Whilst everyone's interest is well intentioned, it doesn't take much to scratch the surface and self interest shines through.
As a non playing parent who has come to baseball through a child participating, I feel that the sport is small and somewhat marginal. I think any 'bumps in the road' that may lose participants should be avoided at all costs. I beliebve the current junior grading falls in this category.
I think all teams should be ranked at the start of a season, based on history, club assesments of what they think their current squad is capable of and possible asociation input. Then a period of games, possibly 4? maybe a couple more? are played and depending on results, even from week to week, adjustments are made on these rankings with a concentration of teams who are borderline cases for a division playing each other.
So in wk1 #6 plays #7. Next week the winner plays a higher ranked team and the loser plays a winning team from somewhere close below #8 to # 12/#14.
After 4? 6? wks divisions are set. Results do not carry over
My club has consistently been placed against opposition which is too strong in grading pools for the last few yrs and whilst it can be instructional in some situations to point out where young Charlie or Beatrice could be (standard wise) it is moreover soul destroying to be smashed week in, week out
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Post by wyatt33 on Oct 21, 2012 12:06:40 GMT 10
Played a game today against a side that had forfeited one game already and only had 6 till about 5 mins before the game. Was told the kid turned 12 in jan. so again they forfeited, but I was told a club official came over and said, 'it's okay we'll just get a permit for him, as he's never played before'. I was a little taken aback when I heard this. Is it possible to do this? Also, Larry you might be able to help, but are there blanks in under 12's?
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Post by larry42 on Oct 22, 2012 9:24:02 GMT 10
If you read the playing conditions it does state that a player needs to be registered prior to playing a game, rego + insurance. Being at Waverley Wyatt its not something i need to worry about personally now (administration) as i used to do at Port. I know in the past BV has allowed a rego to be sent in and in the system on the Monday following a game.
Blanks - i had a quick flick this morning and couldn't find anything but thats not saying that its not there. For games that im involved in it comes down to a discussion between managers. Our first game of the year the team had 7, they hit 7 then back to lead off without blanks. I know of a game yesterday where a team had 7 and although sub fielders were offered i think the blanks were enforced.
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Post by perfeckt on Oct 22, 2012 22:21:11 GMT 10
Just a few examples from last week. Under 18 team win by forfeit. U16 team wins 19-0 and are now 73-1 after three games. U16C, 21-1. Just sayin'.
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bbq27
New Member
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Post by bbq27 on Oct 24, 2012 10:50:42 GMT 10
As we all enjoy stats here are some to note :
in the first 3 rounds of Juniors, the average winning margin for each age level is as follows
U/18 - 9.9
U/16 - 14.1
U/14 - 12.6
U/12 - 16
The total % of games decided by 10+ runs is 54% or 61% if you exclude games where there has been a walkover or no result provided.
To me a lot of more thought needs to be given in evening up the competitions earlier rather than 6 weeks into the season where many kids who have been consistently on the receiving end of a shelacking have lost enthusiasm.
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