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Post by larry42 on Jul 30, 2012 12:39:08 GMT 10
Interested to get people's thoughts on the current junior criteria for clubs ability to play Div 2 and Div 1.
Is the criteria restricting to some clubs/demographics dependant on numbers of primary & high schools in the area?
Should senior teams within the club be affected by what the junior section can put on the field?
Should clubs be given the ability to have concessions depending on extra women's teams/Masters teams they have?
Interesting to see that juniors numbers are at a high point for the past 5 years. Would be even better to get a break down of ages and club affiliation. Not sure im sold on the figures completely especially as TBall numbers can inflate those numbers dramtically.
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Post by oldmanriver on Jul 30, 2012 14:17:37 GMT 10
I have felt for years taht the criteria for positions in 1st and 2nd Division is wrong. All that seems to happens is that the bigger Clubs to remain in the 1st Div attract the better players from smaller Clubs thus reducing the small clubs junior playing stocks. If the pressure wasn't there, maybe some of the more successful 2nd and 3rd Division Clubs maybe already having a crack at 1st Division. Just to have the ability to fill out three of the four age groups should be sufficent. Not having to almost start a league of their own.
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Post by pirates on Jul 30, 2012 16:37:29 GMT 10
you either believe in the junior programme or you don’t. good arguments can be put up for both sides. but if you develop the juniors your club will stay at a higher level for longer as you develop your club from the ground up. Running a junior programme brings a whole new range of disciplines for a club and at the same time you are developing the sport rather than just churning the same players around. Yes you can attract new older players from other sports but realistically this game takes years to be able to play and understand it at a higher level for most participants.
Hard work but lots of rewards in developing a junior club IMO. The clubs that have built up multiple senior teams without juniors have done a great job as well, no doubt. I believe all successful sports have a strong junior base.. At the end of the day they are the ones that will be running the club in the future.
As for the div one clubs using lower graded clubs as a feeder club for their div one juniors, it happens all the time and is very disappointing.
There should be a rule that a junior player does not need to move to other local clubs if their club provides all the approved training, coaching, facilities and opportunities to assist that juniors sporting goals. This is where Baseball Victoria can set the standards for clubs and I believe that Justin Huber is working towards some sort of club accreditation which could be used. Wont suit every situation, but if it’s just because the other club is in div one then there should be rules in place to protect the club that is cultivating and developing the sport amongst juniors in their area.
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Post by larry42 on Jul 31, 2012 10:01:33 GMT 10
Dont think there'll be much grey area with this discussion, people either believe that the criteria is too high or they will believe that it should stay in place as is because thats the only way that clubs survive with good junior programs.
For the record i believe that every club should have to show/prove that they are doing a reasonable job in trying to atract juniors to the sport. But i don't believe that the junior program should be the catalyst for where your senior teams play. If a club is good enough on the field (senior) then they should be able to play in the Division they deserve, not held back because they can only put 2 1/2 junior teams on the park. Its a tail wagging the dog scenario for me.
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Post by wyatt33 on Jul 31, 2012 12:00:32 GMT 10
Don't get me started boys! Funnily enough, we at mulgrave believe we may actually cover the eligibility to go up to first div, assuming we can improve 15 % on last years efforts. What is the criteria anyway? Is it a team in each age group or is a tee ball team required. We are actually in the process of running a second schools tee ball tournament, involving 8 local schools the first one in June was a great success, and the kids and teachers were ecstatic at the day. We have another on scheduled for mid august, and ate hoping that running these types of days can count as part of the criteria. I seem to remember spring had an arrangement with hailerbury college, that counted as a junior team. We had some initial talk with caulfield grammar when we were at gladeswood, but nothing eventuates from those discussions. It's a really chicken/egg type situation for many clubs. We know there are clubs that do an amazing job at attracting kids, but there are clubs that do just as much work, yet aren't able to attract the desired amount of players, be it economic or cultural difficulties in some areas. I guess open discussion on the topic is always good, as long as both sides of the argument are given a fair airing!
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Post by larry42 on Jul 31, 2012 12:21:53 GMT 10
Don't get me started boys! Funnily enough, we at mulgrave believe we may actually cover the eligibility to go up to first div, assuming we can improve 15 % on last years efforts. What is the criteria anyway? Is it a team in each age group or is a tee ball team required. We are actually in the process of running a second schools tee ball tournament, involving 8 local schools the first one in June was a great success, and the kids and teachers were ecstatic at the day. We have another on scheduled for mid august, and ate hoping that running these types of days can count as part of the criteria. I seem to remember spring had an arrangement with hailerbury college, that counted as a junior team. We had some initial talk with caulfield grammar when we were at gladeswood, but nothing eventuates from those discussions. It's a really chicken/egg type situation for many clubs. We know there are clubs that do an amazing job at attracting kids, but there are clubs that do just as much work, yet aren't able to attract the desired amount of players, be it economic or cultural difficulties in some areas. I guess open discussion on the topic is always good, as long as both sides of the argument are given a fair airing! 25 registered tballers will give you one junior team in the criteria, but they have to be registered. If you want consideration for the work you are doing at schools, etc you would need to discuss with BV direct and that may mean a meeting with summer league committee to discuss provisions for club. When Port & StK combined their junior program to become port Phillip we approached BV and were given the okay to do so and a grace period, however the sting from that is that as a Program we were required to double our efforts for either club to reach the criteria as the teams were divided amongst the two clubs. I believe that the criteria for both clubs in under scrutiny from BV at the moment as the Program does not currently meet the D2 criteria. |
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Post by wyatt33 on Jul 31, 2012 13:14:58 GMT 10
We know port are struggling, but St kilda have 8 senior teams( maybe 9, I'm not sure)! It's these sort of thongs that also should be taken into account when the criteria comes up. Maybe there's room for a bit of common sense, but as I've previously stated, what I think is common sense, is probably different to someone else. Hence not really common sense....
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Post by oldmanriver on Jul 31, 2012 15:46:32 GMT 10
I am just glad there are no junior criteria in the Masters otherwise we would never get out of Div 2 South if by a freak of nature we won something. The only juniors we have are the 36 & 37 year olds waiting to be of age. I supposed we could run a 30 to 32, 33 to 35 and a 36 and over grades. I wonder if they would count as Junior sides.
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Post by wearnie52 on Jul 31, 2012 17:24:40 GMT 10
Larry, our club is in the same boat at the moment. We are in our third year of running with 2 Sunday morning junior teams, 1 Friday night team and a bunch of tee ballers. But we dont meet the criteria. Very hard out our way to attract kids, very Multi cultural, and hard to keep kids long term.
I would agree that some common sense should be used. We have four men's teams, 3 women's teams and 2 masters teams. Plus a junior program that we work really hard on.
But even if we continue to work hard, doesn't mean we will ever be able to attract an extra couple of teams to meet the criteria.
Makes it difficult.
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Post by wako on Jul 31, 2012 17:45:42 GMT 10
Very hard out our way to attract kids, very Multi cultural, and hard to keep kids long term. What about an area being very multi-cultural results in it being very hard to attract kids? |
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Post by wearnie52 on Jul 31, 2012 18:24:22 GMT 10
Wako, we have had some success in the past getting some kids from the area to the club. However, it's hard, not one parent ever attends a game, or turns up to watch, or offers to score, or becomes a canteen helper.
The kids turn up after we do school clinics and offer them free training, etc, the minute money comes into it, we lose most of them.
We ran a four team under 12 program about 10 years ago with 90% Cambodian kids, was awesome! But the minute they were up to under 14 and had to travel to other grounds other than springy on a Friday night, never saw them again.
10 years on we have 1 of those kids playing seniors.
Some might disagree, but it is genuinely difficult to get kids in this area playing juniors - and long term.
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Post by wearnie52 on Jul 31, 2012 18:27:13 GMT 10
I must add that Mick and Darryl did put in an under 14's one year, and together drove around springy picking each kid up every Sunday morning for a full season (often having to knock on their doors and wake them up).
The team had a ball. We didn't receive any fees, the club paid all the fees and didn't charge the kids a thing.
Just not the type of thing the club can do every year though.
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Post by wyatt33 on Jul 31, 2012 22:48:46 GMT 10
We have a large African community close by, and well endevour to harness some of that natural sporting talent many of them possess. But wako,whether you want to believe it or not, it is a fact of life that these ethnic communities dont have the same attitude towards the club cultures and responsibilities we build. We had 50 tee ballers a few years ago, after we offered free fees to those kids. Next year, we asked for fees and 5 of those kids returned. It happens. These people think we offer a free baby sitting service, and couldn't give a hoot about the club.
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Post by oldmanriver on Aug 1, 2012 9:04:37 GMT 10
I do understand where Wearnie and Wyatt are coming from, having tried over many years in an area that is either dominated by football or basketball or cricket it is very hard to keep the kids as the parents have the final say. Also depending on the area, such as ours it is a very transient area where people move in for a year then move out. I suppose one pleasing aspect is the signing of clearance forms which to me at least the kids are staying in baseball.
I do believe that BV should re look at this criteria as it really is holding back Clubs that should be playing higher.
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Post by larry42 on Aug 1, 2012 10:01:24 GMT 10
Wearnie - i reckon Springy is the perfect example of a club that has been held back previously, and currently, with the criteria in place. I remember that team dominating in D3 with a team that was definitely good enough to go higher.
The main crux of the arguement is why should a senior clubs positioning be determined by the amount of junior teams they can field? All senior players should have the ability to play the highest level of baseball without having to feel they need to change clubs to do so.
There is enough of a battle for kids as it is without having the issues of surrounding clubs, some in close proximity, some in low level school areas, fighting to place the necessary teams on the field.
Ive sat in meetings listening to representatives from some of the larger junior clubs laugh at the thought of how difficult it is for some clubs to field junior teams and retain their kids. And then fire back with a 'well your obviously not working hard enough'.
With this big push for 'player participation' and the focus on numbers playing our game, this criteria wont change in the near future. With the ABL where it is, participation figures are one of the fore front figures that people are looking at. to even mess with the possibility of those figures taking a dip would be frowned upon.
Some clubs can only hope.
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Post by wearnie52 on Aug 1, 2012 10:41:51 GMT 10
It's a tough one larry.
But if clubs have a lot of actual 'participation numbers' and have a heap of people playing the game, such as our club, and a club like St Kilda, i am unsure why junior numbers are the only thing that get scrutinised.
Don't get me wrong, it's obvious how important juniors are, and we would absolutely love to have a heap of juniors at our club! But we work very hard just to ensure we have a couple of teams each year. I hope we get more, but i can't guarantee to BV that we will. It's not that simple.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2012 12:53:38 GMT 10
It's a tough one larry. But if clubs have a lot of actual 'participation numbers' and have a heap of people playing the game, such as our club, and a club like St Kilda, i am unsure why junior numbers are the only thing that get scrutinised. Don't get me wrong, it's obvious how important juniors are, and we would absolutely love to have a heap of juniors at our club! But we work very hard just to ensure we have a couple of teams each year. I hope we get more, but i can't guarantee to BV that we will. It's not that simple. Wearnie I reckon if you guys are going to kids homes, knocking on doors and waking half the team up 'one by one' to get to away games (often many K's away) you should be allowed to enter a team in 'the Bigs' AND get a medal AND be awarded some sort of BV 'club of the year' nomination ! |
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Post by oldmanriver on Aug 1, 2012 13:34:39 GMT 10
Well people, once again holes have been blown through BV Junior criteria designed to let the bigger clubs get bigger and the smaller clubs can suffer by staying down in a grade that probably is below the standard they can play. If you ask me,(which not people do) BV needs to pull their head out of a dead bears backside and look at the real story. IE: growth areas with young families, old areas with older type families. If they actually looked at it they then may relent on this ridiculous criteria and accept whatever junior sides can be raised by these Clubs. THat's it, I've had my last b&%$h about the subject.
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Post by regg44 on Aug 1, 2012 15:01:23 GMT 10
I am not aware (altough I certainly stand to be corrected) of any other sport where the grade a senior club participates in is determinded by how many junior teams they may or may not have.
Certainly a club that has sound junior numbers and a well run program has a greater chance of sustaining strength over the longer term, but should that prohibit a club that currently has a first nine team capable of playing at a higher level?
IMO it should not. Provided a club can feel the required number of senior teams then that should be the only criteria applicable.
As an aside some of the issues previously raised in respect to juniors dropping off when it comes to playing Sunday mornings not only occur at the clubs with lower numbers of juniors. All clubs experience this i guess at the clubs with greater numbers it is just masked by the weight of numbers.
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Post by oldmanriver on Aug 1, 2012 15:10:03 GMT 10
Regg, You are correct, in no other sport is a junior criteria the governing factor as to where you play. Just Baseball in the summer. Now this is the last i will speak on this topic.(I think)
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Post by Marshy on Aug 1, 2012 16:03:38 GMT 10
This one's a tough one.
Do I agree with the specific criteria? No, too many variables can impact a club's ability to establish juniors.
Do I think that the concept is a good one and based on improving the sport and its numbers? Yes, the theory behind it is sound.
Does the concept work? Maybe.
Should the concept be abolished? Depends on a firm answer to the question above.
This is an example of where BV could spend some of our money and it actually mean something. Conduct a simple study to determine whether junior playing numbers have increased significantly enough since the criteria were introduced, to warrant them staying in place.
They can always abolish them, then re-introduce if numbers dwindle.
I am a big believer that if a club is too short sighted to see the importance of a solid junior program, then they should be able to proceed at their own peril.
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Post by crogers20 on Aug 1, 2012 16:12:25 GMT 10
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Post by wako on Aug 1, 2012 17:21:51 GMT 10
We have a large African community close by, and well endevour to harness some of that natural sporting talent many of them possess. But wako,whether you want to believe it or not, it is a fact of life that these ethnic communities dont have the same attitude towards the club cultures and responsibilities we build. We had 50 tee ballers a few years ago, after we offered free fees to those kids. Next year, we asked for fees and 5 of those kids returned. It happens. These people think we offer a free baby sitting service, and couldn't give a hoot about the club. I don't know about any of the Africans you're talking about, obviously, but I have a cousin who coaches junior cricket teams with significant numbers of Sudanese kids with excellent attrition/retention rates from year to year. One or two of them are now playing ones. Did these parents actually tell you (by which I mean your club) they don't care about the club? Did you ask any of them why their kids didn't return? As a general question for those who say the junior teams criteria are too onerous for certain prospective division 1 clubs , where are those clubs' players coming from, and going to come from? If your position is that once a club is promoted to division 1 that it will attract more juniors, do you have examples of parents actually deciding on a club for their child based on whether or not it plays in division 1, other than the elite few juniors for whom this might make an actual difference to career prospects? |
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Post by 3up3down on Aug 1, 2012 17:22:10 GMT 10
Reggy, let me just throw this out there, if Vermont in the EDFL said to the board we are going to be one junior team short I wonder what the upshot would be as i would believe there is a criteria in football, like I said i don't know just chuckin it out there..
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Post by wako on Aug 1, 2012 17:24:41 GMT 10
Regg, You are correct, in no other sport is a junior criteria the governing factor as to where you play. Just Baseball in the summer. Now this is the last i will speak on this topic.(I think) governing factor, not the governing factor. Also, one other sport is cricket, specifically in the Geelong Cricket Association. |
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Post by 3up3down on Aug 1, 2012 17:26:33 GMT 10
Wearnie, if Springy got the gig in D1 with no junior criteria, would those very few people still work their rings off to keep two junior teams afloat when it would be so easy to say all too hard?  I don't know as people are likely to take the path of least resistance, again just chuckin it out there |
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Post by 3up3down on Aug 1, 2012 17:40:46 GMT 10
clubs with a lot of senior teams I would imagine would have a very good, convivial senior club culture, be definition it would need to be so, otherwise the seniors would leave.....can I suggest that those same clubs that don't have a lot of juniors may be socially orientated towards the seniors and not put in as much effort to the junior social side to engage the parents, it's not always about the game, coaching, fees...sometimes it's about how you "feel" at the club as to whether the experience is worth it, again just chuckin it around
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Post by 3up3down on Aug 1, 2012 17:44:25 GMT 10
another thought just came to mind, Fitzroy....not in a very good position at all and yet my last understanding was they had a very healthy junior program, having experienced their junior nights on a wednesday I believe it was many years ago, the experience was for the parents as well as the kids, hope it's still the same
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Post by wearnie52 on Aug 1, 2012 20:11:43 GMT 10
Wako, I'm not sure about Wyatt, but we could never ask the parents anything, because we never saw one of them. Ever.
3up, we don't get juniors on the field just to meet BV criteria. We get them on the field because we want to have juniors and we want more kids to play the great game of baseball. If BV feel we don't meet the criteria, we will have to play in a lower division. We can only try, but we're not miracle workers. But If people are simply getting kids on the field so they meet the criteria, then that doesn't seem right.
We put in lots of hours training and teaching our kids because we love doing it, they love the training, and we want to have kids playing in the future at our club. We don't do it for BV. We do it for our club.
If we can help BV by increasing our numbers, that's a bonus I suppose.
And I must add, I am not against some kind of criteria/junior program that has to be in place for clubs. Just not sure the current one is ideal.
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Post by larry42 on Aug 1, 2012 21:29:47 GMT 10
To say that clubs wouldn't do the work on trying to attract junior teams/ retain junior members if the criteria was lessened (because I'm not saying eliminated totally) is unfounded. In fact Springy representative has stated that it wouldn't, and as a former junior co ordinator at Port it would be the same there. These types of clubs understand that attracting new kids to the sport and within the junior program is the way to keep the club stocks and future ticking along. I wouldn't think that ANY club s looking for that out if there were changes to the criteria.
Yes I am an advocate for clubs running their own junior programs.
No I don't believe that junior team numbers should determine where your seniors play.
There is such a focus now on participation in the sport, maybe more than I can remember in previous times. On thing that keeps rearing it's head is the retention of older kids from the sport, and a subject that has not been given it's full attention by BV in recent years. Maybe individual clubs do. It's amazing when you can see how some clubs pyramid from heavy base tballers to a pointy end with 18s or combined teams. Maybe that's another thread at another time.
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I don't know as people are likely to take the path of least resistance, again just chuckin it out there