whynot
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by whynot on Aug 1, 2012 22:04:24 GMT 10
quick two cents worth ,with WWC checks and legal issues Local footy clubs went for seniors clubs and junior clubs each stands alone on their own merits but are intrinsically tied together, we might need to look at what are the currently expanding participation areas ie women's juniors masters ect and total numbers , ironically the states ball programs have what could only be considered alarming drop of rates per advancing age group , but then they are heading to the one final goal of limited opportunity, the pro's . Maybe we can realise we arent a pro league, and junior retention from inception to medium term senior player is a small figure, we need other ways to retain juniors and support them and the div 1 clubs should only need run an approved program , say local school comp and not take ownership over players but encourage and empower them to play baseball, in time a different approach will be realised as we can keep doing the same things that arent working across the board.
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Post by wako on Aug 2, 2012 7:23:23 GMT 10
Hmm. I wonder what the actual motivation behind the junior criteria is? If it's to help a club look after itself long-term, then that's arguably a problem that solves itself - a Div 1 club with insufficient juniors to sustain Div 1-standard seniors will end up being demoted anyway, assuming that the other Div 1 clubs are able to continue attracting and retaining enough juniors.
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Post by oldmanriver on Aug 2, 2012 8:10:39 GMT 10
Hello Wako, I not sure what happens down hand bag land in the cricket but in other major cricket associations, ie: Premier, VSDCA, VTCA, MPCA, junior sides are not a criteria as to what division you play in. Juniors will go in cycles, having experienced when I was growing up, the local cricket side had at one stage 6 junior sides, within 6 years they were lucky to have two as the area grew up with no new influx of young families moving in. The area grew old. If the senior team is good enough to play Div 1, 2 or 3 junior side should be sufficent. As long as the Club is making attempts to get kids on the ground, that should be all that matters, not how bloody many. It is about time BV pulled their collective heads out of the sand and had a real good look at the real world. Perhaps the new Chairman/President could look into his own backyard to see what Clubs experience. It seems to me that once people get to these high podiums in life, they forget the struggles of where they came from. Now this is definately my last word on this subject as it is still going around in circles.
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Post by perfeckt on Aug 2, 2012 10:18:41 GMT 10
G'day oldmanriver, I agree with you that this threads' comments, questions and opinions are still going around in circles but I don't think that's such a bad thing. Is the current situation good/bad? Is it broken? Will it evolve or devolve? Are some clubs favoured to the detriment of others? New players, old players, swapping players, who is responsible? etc. Like many people who read and comment on this forum I have my opinions and cure-all ideas. From the most august commentators to the newbie forum poster threads such as this one can indeed take on a circular nature with (seemingly) no progress but my thinking and attitudes toward issues like this one have evolved because of the discussions produced on this forum and I'm sure that the new readers and members of this forum (and to the game) come online their understanding will benefit from the commentary of people like you. So, keep it up. More discussion means there's more people which in turn means more ideas and you know about the old question..."If you put a hundred monkeys in a room with a hundred typewriters......? Well this is our room. : )
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Post by wyatt33 on Aug 2, 2012 10:20:04 GMT 10
There is no junior criteria to be a div 1 club in the EFL, the largest football league in the country. Balwyn, a perennial finalist, don't even have under 19's. Your argument does have some merit wako but clearly your more worried about your clubs standing in the top division, than seeing other clubs grow! If you want to make it a one division league, then there would be alot more players giving it away than moving to another club. But you'd already know that....
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Post by Marshy on Aug 2, 2012 10:25:27 GMT 10
Serious question here, not taking the mickey or anything...
Which clubs are disadvantaged by these criteria? Which clubs should ideally be playing in a higher grade but aren't allowed to?
I've heard Springy mentioned, who else?
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Post by wearnie52 on Aug 2, 2012 10:37:04 GMT 10
Springy may have been in the past Marshy, not sure who else. But this issue at the moment, and i'm assuming the reason this thread was started, is that all clubs who currently don't meet the criteria are now being asked to either write a letter that contains the club's plan for the growth of it's junior program, how they expect to eventually reach the necessary criteria, and when they expect to reach it. This happens usually every two years, sometimes prior to every season i think. (I know the last time we had to front BV was two years ago, and we actually had to go in and face the whole committee and explain our position).
As i said earlier, i don't have issues with clubs having to have some kind of junior program in place. It's obviously a great way to ensure future success at any club. BUT, to have to explain yourself to BV every season to ensure your seniors are allowed to play in the correct Division, doesn't seem right. Especially when your club has 9 senior teams entered in various BV competitions.
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Post by oldmanriver on Aug 2, 2012 11:18:19 GMT 10
Your right Perfeckt, it must have been that I was getting ready to knock off for the day. What probably dismays me the most is that clearance traffic between juniors fro one club to the other all because theyare in Div 1. Usually it is a Div 2 side that suffers as that kid that has had the time and effort put into him is swept away to Div 1 generally gold lace crap. Maybe that one player may have made the difference when he turned of age to help raise that club from Div 2 to Div 1. Perhaps a solution would be to abolish Divisions and just place every club in a North, South, East and West Division where everybody is equal and realign the juniors and help clubs to grow. Or put a point system in place where a premium point is placed on a junior if applying for a clearance that would prevent him from playing in the senior 1st IX for sometime. The point system the MPCA used was introduced 6 or so years ago and the clearance traffic dropped by 75%. just something to think about.
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Post by wako on Aug 2, 2012 11:43:03 GMT 10
There is no junior criteria to be a div 1 club in the EFL, the largest football league in the country. Balwyn, a perennial finalist, don't even have under 19's. Your argument does have some merit wako but clearly your more worried about your clubs standing in the top division, than seeing other clubs grow! If you want to make it a one division league, then there would be alot more players giving it away than moving to another club. But you'd already know that.... I haven't made an argument. You need to read more carefully.
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Post by wako on Aug 2, 2012 11:48:08 GMT 10
Hello Wako, I not sure what happens down hand bag land in the cricket but in other major cricket associations, ie: Premier, VSDCA, VTCA, MPCA, junior sides are not a criteria as to what division you play in. Premier and Sub-district cricket do not have regular junior competitions, they have yearly junior tournaments (Dowling Shield and Hatch Shield). VTCA only has Under 17s. Junior requirements for these competitions would be a very different proposition to that of the BVSL where there are four junior age groups who play every week in season.
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Post by farnt on Aug 2, 2012 12:11:43 GMT 10
Waernie I hope Springy gets some good younger people through. With all due respect to Rob Hogan (who owns me), and Buzz (who nearly owns me) and several others, surely there are some quality players coming through the club who aren't also in your Masters team!
And Wyatt, a $300k annual salary bill will get you some finals action - just ask the guys at Balwyn Tigers and Heidelberg Tigers. Imagine what the Aces could do with that...
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Post by oldmanriver on Aug 2, 2012 12:47:34 GMT 10
Wako, having been through the cricket saga of playing VSDCA and what was once called District cricket I knew they have no juniors per say. If there are only four age groups, why is the criteria double plus some? I think that is the main question being asked. Surely, 3 out of 4 would be close enough. If you managed to have more good luck to that Club. Sleepy Hollow would be in a great situation having a whole winter league to turn into a summer extravaganza. Sanity would be good but I fear our masters don't have an awful lot of it. Just Blinkers to see what they want to see only.
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Post by oldmanriver on Aug 2, 2012 13:01:01 GMT 10
Just finished lunch with a coupla pots of inspiration, lets follow the AFL's lead and get rid of the junior league(being U/19 & U/17's) and create a seperate junior league and at the end of each season, run a draft for players leaving the U/18 level. That way everybody will be equal. Just kidding people. But let's be serious, BV will not change their mantra regardless of what solution this forum can discuss and possibly solve the great Junior Criteria mystrey.
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Post by larry42 on Aug 2, 2012 13:28:35 GMT 10
The thread was started to get some thoughts and opinions on the Criteria, not the ability to solve the problem or come up with answers. That would lay squarely in the hands of BV and the Summer League Committee.
Those clubs now under the pump is not the question, but am sure there's been at least a half dozen over the last 10 years or more. Well i know of at least 4 affected previously and possibly in the next year or two.
I believe the rule is archaic, always have. Maybe someone can remember how long its been in place? I can remember the Penant Committee back in the day when Paul Collins was at the helm and this was a sticking point then.
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Post by janet on Aug 2, 2012 17:20:20 GMT 10
Interesting thoughts, but I do find it amazing that wearnie52 has explained a number of difficult issues that seem to hold their club back for years and is finding it difficult to expand and all concerned posting in this thread attack BV with a feather duster and gentle backhanders. How has that "feather duster and gentle backhander" approach worked for clubs so far ? I don't care if you like how I explain things or not, the point is there are issues in the game that should be dealt with but are not! Yes larry42 the rule is archaic and I beleive a "sledge hammer" approach is the only way to get any change!
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Post by dirtyword on Aug 2, 2012 17:43:00 GMT 10
Interesting thoughts, but I do find it amazing that wearnie52 has explained a number of difficult issues that seem to hold their club back for years and is finding it difficult to expand and all concerned posting in this thread attack BV with a feather duster and gentle backhanders. How has that "feather duster and gentle backhander" approach worked for clubs so far ? I don't care if you like how I explain things or not, the point is there are issues in the game that should be dealt with but are not! Yes larry42 the rule is archaic and I beleive a "sledge hammer" approach is the only way to get any change! How many juniors in the ranks at Dingley in winter? Strange theres kids based at that field in winter but disappear in summer?
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whynot
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by whynot on Aug 3, 2012 0:03:26 GMT 10
now your really talking oldmariner
Just finished lunch with a coupla pots of inspiration, lets follow the AFL's lead and get rid of the junior league(being U/19 & U/17's) and create a seperate junior league and at the end of each season, run a draft for players leaving the U/18 level. That way everybody will be equal.
I have been involved in babe ruth and travell leagues for juniors, leagues run comps the teams draft players from the league pool on need basis and have to give reasons and bid for the players , no team owns players they work for the players development and success of the league by having equitable comp standard across the board .
For my money an under 18 team should be a higher priority to sustain div 1 status than transient young juniors, this in no way belittles junior programs but if you make div 1 and yourgoing to stay there your next generation must be on hand.
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Post by wyatt33 on Aug 3, 2012 8:39:27 GMT 10
Just a little point from me. The idea is too bring kids thru that will play seniors. That's fine. And all clubs would love to have a well run program that gives those kids the best possible chance of this. That creates a system where these clubs don't necessarily rely on recruiting players( seniors and juniors) from other clubs. But let's be honest, there are plenty....PLENTY of div 1 players that chop and change clubs to suit themselves! So my logic is that if a club is good enough, and maybe flush with enough money, to recruit a side that's good enough to win a 2nd div flag, and can keep them together to be a good forts div club, what's the difference? None I'd think. When you see some of the clubs in first div, and some od their recruiting, surely this is going to impede the chance of a junior or already club player from playing that position. If the club can sustain this policy, they shouldn't be denied that chance to continue to play the top tier!
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Post by wako on Aug 3, 2012 12:24:41 GMT 10
Sleepy Hollow would be in a great situation having a whole winter league to turn into a summer extravaganza. Sanity would be good but I fear our masters don't have an awful lot of it. Just Blinkers to see what they want to see only. It is great to have the GBA, bear in mind, though, that half of theclubs are not based in Geelong and of those, Werribee are a summer club, and Bacchus Marsh, Ballarat City, Alfredton, and Mounties tend to be aligned with clubs in Melbourne's west, particularly Sunshine, Essendon, Newport, and Williamstown. Some Geelong-based clubs also have significant numbers from these west Melbourne clubs. In juniors, Newport enter their own teams. The travel demands are too much for some to be able to commit to summer, also. All in all, we do pretty well.
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Post by stuartcapel on Aug 3, 2012 13:22:28 GMT 10
Just a little point from me. The idea is too bring kids thru that will play seniors. That's fine. And all clubs would love to have a well run program that gives those kids the best possible chance of this. That creates a system where these clubs don't necessarily rely on recruiting players( seniors and juniors) from other clubs. But let's be honest, there are plenty....PLENTY of div 1 players that chop and change clubs to suit themselves! So my logic is that if a club is good enough, and maybe flush with enough money, to recruit a side that's good enough to win a 2nd div flag, and can keep them together to be a good forts div club, what's the difference? None I'd think. When you see some of the clubs in first div, and some od their recruiting, surely this is going to impede the chance of a junior or already club player from playing that position. If the club can sustain this policy, they shouldn't be denied that chance to continue to play the top tier! So if we had eight Division One clubs who just paid players and did minimal work on juniors and Division Two was made up of clubs with solid junior set-ups but not good enough to beat the semi-pro Division One teams at firsts level this would be prosperous for the sport to grow in this state? Respect that you can perhaps see that Wyatt, but I can't.
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Post by wyatt33 on Aug 3, 2012 21:21:54 GMT 10
You ve missed my point. It's that first div clubs do a lot of recruiting anyway. And lots of players do move around from club to club in that div. I was trying to point out that there's little difference from say a cheltenham recruiting 4 or 5 players in one season, and say mulgrave, recruiting 5-6 first div players to win a second div flag(oh to dream), a team that would be a good first div side. There is little difference, so why should one team be disadvantaged more than the other? I'm not against juniors, I'm just not a fan of the criteria. In fact it's funny how the people on this forum that aren't fans are members of clubs struggling, amd the pro criteria crowd are at clubs that have established strong juniors. Surprise surprise....
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Post by perfeckt on Aug 3, 2012 23:30:59 GMT 10
My involvement on the periphery, (progeny T-baller thru Snr.) that is, a bit of coaching, a bit of club support, a very little bit of canteen and umpiring, a bit of beer league and a hell of a lot of taxi work, has given me a wide ranging view of the reasons junior and later senior players shift clubs. T-ballers and their parents don't give two hoots about the Div 1 seniors aspirations, the kids just want to run and hit, catch and throw, the parents want to support their kids in any endeavor they are happy with...untill they're not. The pre-teen players that are left after the T-ball stage are generally the ones that have fallen in love with the game and have convinced their parents to keep finding a way to take them (out) to the ball game. The teenagers become either happy with their lot and continue to play club ball at whatever level, drop out or decide that they want to play at a level higher than their peers. It's at this stage that I have seen the biggest changes in attitude from the player, the clubs and the parent(s). I have seen people from a long way away drawn to a big club at this level only (sometimes) to be disappointed when their spawn is not where they think they should be or rapt because they are. I've seen junior players move to other clubs 'cause they think they would have a better chance at better recognition of their talents and often (not always) that has meant going to a club in a lower division. These things I understand. A strong, well supported club with a strong junior base can suffer players leaving to play elsewhere just as smaller clubs can benefit from the overflow, just as some clubs invest in outsiders over and above their own developemental programs which in turn can encourage homegrown talent, years in the making, to look elsewhere.
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Post by perfeckt on Aug 3, 2012 23:37:53 GMT 10
Criteria ?
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