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Post by Goblin on Jan 11, 2011 22:31:49 GMT 10
The 2011/2012 BV Summer League season will see changes made to the administration and criteria of several Summer League competition rules and policies. These changes have been adopted to update existing policies, adhere to national policies and to reinforce Baseball Victoria’s policies. (see attachment for full details) Sponsorship of International Athletes to Australia (Non Nationals)Immediately following the current BV Summer League season, Baseball Victoria is adhering to the Australian Baseball Federations (ABF) sanctions policy and will no longer accept ETA, holiday or working holiday Visas for Non National players. The only Visa that will be accepted for Non National players is a “Sporting Visa”. Details of the ABF sanctions policy relating to sponsorship of international athletes to Australia and the Sporting Visa is now available on the Baseball Victoria and BV Summer League websites. www.vic.baseball.com.au/?Page=71813"This condition of registration will be enforced as Baseball Victoria and clubs are responsible for ensuring a person is appropriately authorized to enter Australia as well as allowing them to legally carry out activities requested by their club. This process also improves our ability to identify people that may not be of good character due to previous visits to Australia."WTF ? Attachments:
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Post by p26 on Jan 12, 2011 7:46:09 GMT 10
Eta, holiday and working holiday visas aren't sponsored. Are they saying all non-nats have to be sponsored now? Anybody know the cost of this? also, I could be wrong but my understanding is that sporting visas won't allow the player to work outside of baseball. Does this mean bv intends to employ them or that the club is required to pay them?
Forget about expanding to two imports because if my understanding is correct, a lot of clubs won't be able to afford one any more, let alone two. Aces can kiss goodbye a few of their pitchers and with only locals left we're going to be facing some very average, or very young, pitching with the best being up on aces duties.
Seems a very odd time to make such a change. Hopefully I'm wrong about the cost and the employment restrictions. Anybody know any more detail?
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Post by p26 on Jan 12, 2011 7:53:35 GMT 10
Ok, just read some more info. No cost for the visa if the sport is amateur.
Bad news is they can notnwork in a position or occupation inconsistent with the position nominated on the visa application, or undertake secondary employment.
However, if they bring a partner it seems they an work?
So, I'm guessing bv won't employ them as they would need to be the sponsor and they can't work for extra cash as many do. So basically either the club pays them or they can't earn while they're here. how many clubs or their imports could afford that?
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Post by coolpappa on Jan 12, 2011 9:23:36 GMT 10
Is this more to do with insurance and public liability that all players are covered for.
Know of a situation in another sport, where a club paid for a player to come to oz and she tore her ACL. As she came here on a tourist visa, her travel insurance cover was significantly reduced because she was playing in an organised sport sanctioned by a registered sporting body in specific contravention of her policy, and the sporting body's insurance was also reduced because she contravened her visa requirements.
The up-shot of this - come up with $10,000 cash and have the knee repaired privately, go back home or wait for 12 months on the public hospital waiting list.
Also, what are the visa/insurance requirements for our players goin to US/Europe/Asia - is the ABL policy consistent with this. Secondly, if you are paid to play or accept significant financial assistance to come over here, are you and amateur or a semi-professional??
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Post by 4crownies on Jan 12, 2011 10:28:27 GMT 10
Ok, just read some more info. No cost for the visa if the sport is amateur. Bad news is they can notnwork in a position or occupation inconsistent with the position nominated on the visa application, or undertake secondary employment. However, if they bring a partner it seems they an work? So, I'm guessing bv won't employ them as they would need to be the sponsor and they can't work for extra cash as many do. So basically either the club pays them or they can't earn while they're here. how many clubs or their imports could afford that? My theory: Maybe they are looking at the clubs to "sponsor a player". In this scenario the ABL would put together a list of players, and clubs would bid for their services, or perhaps even just get issued with a player depending on what your club requires. Then, when required, these players would fill the gaps on the ABL staffs. This way they are only getting paid for sport related work. Which brings me to the next point, can anyone confirm or deny that some ABL players are getting paid $25 for a home game?
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Post by stuartcapel on Jan 12, 2011 10:42:03 GMT 10
If we got Kamei for $25 per game, then that was a steal, 4C! I do hope that the players are looked after better than that though. For the entertainment we have received, we've had a bargain...and we've still got another home series and play-offs to come.
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Post by p26 on Jan 12, 2011 14:18:01 GMT 10
My understanding is that salary is based on experience, in terms of claxton shield campaigns, professional experience overseas and current pro status. 25 bucks per game doesn't sound great, but for somebody like Dan McGrath is probably about right given his age, lives with parents, not signed etc etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 14:38:59 GMT 10
My understanding is that salary is based on experience, in terms of claxton shield campaigns, professional experience overseas and current pro status. 25 bucks per game doesn't sound great, but for somebody like Dan McGrath is probably about right given his age, lives with parents, not signed etc etc. Im assuming you are being sarcastic P26 ?
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Post by regg44 on Jan 12, 2011 14:59:38 GMT 10
I would have thought that any current signed players, including the Japanese guys, would be paid by their pro clubs. Fairly sure they get paid during the off season unless they have been released.
We dont need to know how much any individual is paid by the Aces - that should be a confidential issue as in any employer / employee scenario.
Daniel McGrath cant be paid, as a junior, he must remain strictly amateur. I think that was stated when he first signed his Aces contract.
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Post by 4crownies on Jan 12, 2011 18:43:07 GMT 10
that should be a confidential issue as in any employer / employee scenario. Daniel McGrath cant be paid, as a junior, he must remain strictly amateur. I think that was stated when he first signed his Aces contract. Then why are you telling us Daniels' postion?
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Post by p26 on Jan 12, 2011 20:52:54 GMT 10
Authentic, no sarcasm applied. Why is that?
Regg, pure speculation on my behalf. I have no idea exact dollars. The 25 dollar comment came from 4crownies comment above. Good thing Dan isn't being paid to be honest though as he needs to stay amateur if he ends up going to college instead of signed from what I understand?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 22:15:04 GMT 10
Authentic, no sarcasm applied. Why is that? Regg, pure speculation on my behalf. I have no idea exact dollars. The 25 dollar comment came from 4crownies comment above. Good thing Dan isn't being paid to be honest though as he needs to stay amateur if he ends up going to college instead of signed from what I understand? I agree that ones wage should be a private matter (albeit that in the States it is splashed all over Sportscenter etc) its just that if a 'professional' player were to get such poultry amount it would be a joke, I mean that would amount to maybe 5-10% of the gatetaking to pay the people that are putting on the show ! (P26 I know you werent suggesting it is or should be $25 for match payments for whomever.)
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Post by wyatt33 on Jan 13, 2011 8:24:01 GMT 10
Wasn't this about imports and not the aces salary packages?
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Post by stuartcapel on Jan 13, 2011 8:30:54 GMT 10
Wouldn't be the first thread to go off on a slight tangent, Wyatt, but you're quite correct.
P26 is right. It does indeed look as if the two import situation I mentioned in another thread is all but a mute point now. Strange as I thought the stakeholders wouldn't have made a decision on this until after a review of the season, both for the BV competition(s) and Melbourne Aces.
I think this may stem from BV and a few clubs having a difference of opinion over what visa allowed a player to play First IX baseball this season. I'm aware of at least three clubs who had issues with this in the hours preceeding opening day of the summer season.
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Post by pakkyp on Jan 13, 2011 9:31:45 GMT 10
I think this may stem from BV and a few clubs having a difference of opinion over what visa allowed a player to play First IX baseball this season. I'm aware of at least three clubs who had issues with this in the hours preceeding opening day of the summer season. Would love to see the analysis done on the decision to restrict imports to this visa type. How many clubs were approached for comment, what were they're comments, etc. So I guess for future seasons clubs will be looking for imports who can support themselves? Apart from the few clubs financially well off enough to pay for their services in full.
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Post by The Joker on Jan 13, 2011 10:54:59 GMT 10
Is it possible that there are some legal implications here that we may be unaware of? Perhaps something to do with the cash jobs that sometimes accompany these imports and the tax implications associated?
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Post by pakkyp on Jan 13, 2011 11:15:32 GMT 10
Is it possible that there are some legal implications here that we may be unaware of? Hence my questioning the analysis of this decision, rather than my normal shoot first, ask questions later approach Wouldn't the unable to work for any secondary employee clause force any clubs looking to use an import into this exact cash job situation? Or are most clubs so financially well off that they can fully support an import during his time here?
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Post by perfeckt on Jan 13, 2011 11:19:17 GMT 10
I reckon all imports should be detained on Christmas Island for an indefinite period whilst their credentials are thoroughly investigated and all backround checks completed and bona fides are verified by the relevent authorities. ;D
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Post by The Joker on Jan 13, 2011 11:20:11 GMT 10
Wouldn't the unable to work for any secondary employee clause force any clubs looking to use an import into this exact cash job situation? Or are most clubs so financially well off that they can fully support an import during his time here? I smell butt covering. Seems to me some of this style of arrangement may have been going on already. Perhaps BV got wind and modified their position to avoid responsibility for these practices if an audit of sorts were carried out? Note: all speculation on my part, I know nothing.
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Post by Chardy on Jan 13, 2011 14:20:21 GMT 10
So what if an American is in Australia on holidays for 6 months and see's a baseball training or game and decides while he is here that he wants to play?
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Post by p26 on Jan 13, 2011 14:23:46 GMT 10
But that is why the working holiday visa is great. The import can work legally in anything they like and declare the income. Aside from a sporting visa it would be the best option I would have thought?
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Post by rammo on Jan 13, 2011 14:48:55 GMT 10
Is this "ruling" for Non National Players who are paid by their club? So what if an American is in Australia on holidays for 6 months and see's a baseball training or game and decides while he is here that he wants to play? Or does it also apply as per Chardy's post? (they pay fees)
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Post by pakkyp on Jan 13, 2011 19:21:28 GMT 10
Is this "ruling" for Non National Players who are paid by their club? So what if an American is in Australia on holidays for 6 months and see's a baseball training or game and decides while he is here that he wants to play? Or does it also apply as per Chardy's post? (they pay fees) The memo reads to me that Chardy's American import is not eligible to play as he doesn't have the appropriate visa. If my interpretation is correct, then it goes a long way to pushing people away from our game... an interesting path to tread for an association who's objectives are to "... encourage, promote, advance, standardise, control and administer all forms of the sport of baseball in and throughout Victoria"
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Post by regg44 on Jan 14, 2011 16:56:28 GMT 10
that should be a confidential issue as in any employer / employee scenario. Daniel McGrath cant be paid, as a junior, he must remain strictly amateur. I think that was stated when he first signed his Aces contract. Then why are you telling us Daniels' postion? So that no inneudo can occur because it is essential that he remains an amateur - college; National under age teams etc etc And it was also reported when he first signed his Aces contract. As for the others, pro players or not, I couldn't care less what they get paid
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Post by wyatt33 on Jan 15, 2011 10:32:38 GMT 10
I know with our situation(twice) that remuneration wasn't part of the package. An airfare, job and accom was all that was required, and with schnitz, he covered his airfare. So why can't they just continue allowing this to happen? It's because they want to run the smaller clubs out, and only have about 16 super clubs! Otherwise why would the league embrace such a narrow minded policy? Oh that's right....I forgot....baseball Victoria! My bad!
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Post by wyatt33 on Jan 15, 2011 10:39:54 GMT 10
In terms of insurance, surely if a player comes over, he will have the appropriate level of cover, thus avoiding any headaches. I know juice had his own cover. Maybe if a policy is taken up and some sort of waiver is signed then they can play under there working holiday visa.? Or am I way off course with this one? I'd just hate to see the standards drop because of some silly red tape applied by the governing body.
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Post by ck24 on Jan 15, 2011 12:16:23 GMT 10
this might be a good one for a st kilda player to look at they had I reckon three or four yanks in there twos last season or maybe one before that were over here working (fee paying players) so what would happen with them they were not div 1 type players so does that mean they cant play either? ??
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Post by MF on Jan 15, 2011 13:07:26 GMT 10
Not to mention foreign students who won't be able to play anymore.
Do baseball victoria *ever* seek input before making decisions that affect large numbers of players and clubs? Do they ever even attempt to explain the rationale behind controversial decisions?
<crickets>
No, didn't think so.
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Post by stockley on Jan 15, 2011 13:15:34 GMT 10
I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the term non-national in this context was used for international players playing in clubs 1st nine.
Any player is eligible to play in the league at any level, with the exception of imports requiring to meet specific qualifications.
Its hardly going to affect large numbers of players, etc.
Maybe some clarification is required before too many people fly of the handle.
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Post by ck24 on Jan 15, 2011 13:41:13 GMT 10
Not to mention foreign students who won't be able to play anymore. Do baseball victoria *ever* seek input before making decisions that affect large numbers of players and clubs? Do they ever even attempt to explain the rationale behind controversial decisions? <crickets> No, didn't think so. as much as i can remember and dont quote me on this lol but students were not classed as non nationals can have as many as u like
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