|
Post by aueagle30 on Mar 11, 2012 11:13:53 GMT 10
Is Wangaratta et al. first season too big a stretch? Absolutely. Is asking players and clubs to foot the bill excessive? Of course. Oh, so you mean regardless of the million other hypoteticals that might have been acceptable to the clubs, the actual proposition Baseball Victoria presented to the clubs is 'too big a stretch' and 'excessive'? So come up with a situation where the country wins and clubs don't lose as a worst case scenario? Is a situation where 'clubs don't lose' the same as a situation where clubs win? If regional areas win and clubs 'don't lose', could we assume mutual benefit? Stu, looks like you and I are two for two so far! Let's bring this bad boy home together... As for the Aces doing it, I can't begin to suggest why that's not a feesable suggestion. Okay, okay I know the fans think this is a set back, but I'm confident we can still get the job done here... Please Stu, begin, expand and conclude... I'm sure you will be able to make sense of why you've praised the virtues of our amatuer clubs and athletes promoting the game in regional areas, regardless of personal costs, yet you question the feasibility of our professional club and athletes performing the exact same function?
|
|
|
Post by aueagle30 on Mar 11, 2012 11:24:49 GMT 10
Not that anyone would care but I think the idea of regional baseball is wasted energy and has no need here! I would have thought a good working relationship between members, clubs, BV, should be the priority before we "take the sport to the bush". Reading other threads/posts this is definatley not the case (working relationship) and I think there is more pressing issues that need sorting before this sport can go "country". If the members/clubs do nothing about this it will stay business as usual. But while I'm thinking of the idea... when 9 of the 13 teams in Div 2 (I've excluded Waverley) don't have the junior requirements for promotion to Div 1, why has this focus on regional areas gained traction? Not to say it should be ignored, but I bet some current Div 1 and Div 2 clubs would love some additional focus in their areas on promotion and development? Agreed Frita... I would have thought our Summer League clubs had more pressing needs than the development of our sport in regional areas. I think we agree our clubs are not putting forth a clear enough message about what we need from BV, which is leading BV to develop these ideas and force them through just to achieve some forward momentum somewhere.
|
|
|
Post by stuartcapel on Mar 11, 2012 12:14:44 GMT 10
Simple economics will lead you on the path to enlightenment in regards your question.
|
|
|
Post by aueagle30 on Mar 11, 2012 14:59:13 GMT 10
Simple economics will lead you on the path to enlightenment in regards your question. Looks like the fans are going to leave disappointed again, Bob... Stu, I encourage you to expand. If the economics of this are so simple, it shouldn't take long to edumicate us... Or are you happy for this non sequitur to act as solid reasoning?
|
|
|
Post by stuartcapel on Mar 11, 2012 16:01:07 GMT 10
Why? I thought you had the background in economics.
I think you need to tick a box.
|
|
|
Post by p26 on Mar 11, 2012 16:24:12 GMT 10
There's no reason the warm up games couldn't be regional stu? If I recall correctly the games held at Geelong pre-season were comp entry. That would mean no financial impact if held further out?
|
|
|
Post by aueagle30 on Mar 11, 2012 17:15:33 GMT 10
Why? I thought you had the background in economics. I think you need to tick a box. Sounds like a man asking to be told an answer... let's keep it basic... ABL clubs have at least one full time staff member, if not more... I'm unaware of a single local club that has reached the point of paying a full-time staff member. ABL players are compensated for their time spent playing for the Aces... I'm yet to meet a player that is paid for his time playing club baseball (I'm sure you can argue there are some, but please humor me and agree most don't). The Aces have set a precedent for playing games in regional areas (Geelong last year) and are prepared to charge fans for entry (Geelong last year)... BV's idea is untested and since no mention of charging fans was made, let's assume it's not planned. The ABL clubs are regularly promoted on a state/national level (major print/TV news outlets)... Most local clubs receive moderate coverage on a local level (local print news outlets). Even though the ABL is backed by MLB (multi-billion $ organisation) and the ABF (ran at a loss last year thanks to dodgy investments of our sport's money, but had been running at a decent profit prior to that), while local clubs are backed by the same players already financially investing the ABF, let's assume neither can appropriately call on it's investors to fund the regional program (even though that's what BV has done). Because the financial records of both ABL clubs and local baseball clubs are not publicly available, it would be foolish of us to assume anything about each's capacity to generate greater revenue, so let's assume their net postion at the end of the year is identical... meaning they earn exactly the same profit/loss as each other. Due to the diverse range of players at both levels, let's also assume opportunity cost (money/opportunity lost by playing baseball) for all players at both levels is also exactly the same. Based on these assumptions, I think it's more feasible for an ABL club, such as the Aces, to actively engage in promoting baseball to regional areas because... - The marginal cost for an ABL club is lower due to lower real opportunity costs for both ABL players and administrators (if opportunity costs for both is the same, but one is compensated for his activity, his real oppotunity cost is lower than the person not compensated).
- ABL clubs have greater capacity to generate a postive outcome due to a greater promotional capacity and greater resources (employees), and a greater capacity to generate revenue through gate receipts.
- ABL club the Melbourne Aces has proven it's capacity to conduct a similar regional program, reducing the overall risk in the program.
Now Stu, this is pretty basic... I'm not sure if you had a more simple explanation since you wouldn't share. I really shouldn't entertain any rebuttal from you since I gave you a chance to put you point of view forward and you refused... seems more like you wanted someone else to throw the first punch so you could try and poke holes... but what the hell, dazzle us with your simple economic rebuttal.
|
|
|
Post by stockley on Mar 11, 2012 17:39:19 GMT 10
Have to agree with Aueagle. How can anyone actually believe that it's more economically viable for the local clubs and players to spend their hard earned moving games rather than the Aces?
Even if we're going to argue the loss of gate revenue, surely the long term brand awareness of the aces and the building of a loyal fan base is what that club is attempting build at the moment, and the loss of some gate revenue short term would be far outweighed by the gains in that area. Good will in communities will tend to go a long way, and would realistically build the profile of the sport a lot more than a couple of div 1 clubs.
Who don you think would draw more interest in say Bendigo... Vfl teams sandringham v port Melbourne or essendon v Carlton?
Maybe the economics of the aces isn't what you meant.. It's just the die hard fans getting out to watch your worried about
|
|
|
Post by stuartcapel on Mar 11, 2012 22:06:46 GMT 10
I'm not going to provide rebuttal or attempt to poke holes auseagle. From the start where there was uproar (with justification) in regards the proposal and how it was unfair and wouldn't work, I simply tried to find a workable solution in order to reach common ground where something COULD work.
The best argument to my proposal seemed to be, well, some teams don't meet Division One requirements and that it's the Melbourne Aces responsibility.
That you can't even entertain the idea of heading to a regional area such as Ballarat for a solitary day in order to at worst trial this suggests that you need to tick the box as it goes some distance to providing a true and accurate reflection of your beliefs.
At the end of all this, I think of someone like KC, who has travelled to Melbourne (and Geelong) time after time to provide a story on the Aces or on a club game in order to keep baseball people like us informed on what is going on. Having a look at baseball media around the traps, we are spoilt by the man's dedication and effort to promoting the game within its ranks. We will miss him once he is gone come the end of this season.
And yet after all someone has done for the sport, travelling to a regional centre such as his to promote baseball is too hard. He seemed happy to travel the opposite way to assist the game.
Please tick the box auseagle.
|
|
|
Post by aueagle30 on Mar 12, 2012 15:05:52 GMT 10
For the past 9 nine years I've coached the only regional-based club in BV's Summer League. Throughout that time, I freely gave of my time to coach Geelong at junior winter championships in places such as Ballarat and Mildura. I've also represented Geelong and the VPBL as a player at senior level throughout the past 10 years. Between 2003-2010, I drove more than 30,000km/year from my regional residence in Geelong to coach with Victorian junior teams and the VIS program. Between 2004-2008 I was contracted by Baseball Victoria to act as a Regional Development Officer, focused primarily in the Geelong region. Throughout that time I conducted school clinics, coaching accrediation programs, and club come-and-try days in not only Geelong, but Metro Melbourne, Ballarat, Colac, Warrnambool and Phillip Island. Throughout this debate I've consistently stated my willingness to be involved in the development of baseball in regional areas, but I believe the current proposal is flawed and the coersive nature of the proposal is unacceptable. Most people that have commented on these issues have stated similar concerns. Although agreeing my points on several occassions, stuartcapel is now using straw man fallacies to state: - I've somehow rejected a proposal to take the Geelong Baycats to play in Ballarat (no proposal such as this has ever been offered to me by BV), and
- I've shown personal disregard for KC (a man I hold in high regard, a man very adept at standing up for himself when he feels someone has crossed his line, and a man who I spoke to personally yesterday for 15 minutes and at no point did he seem hurt by my opinons in this debate)
It also seems stuartcapel's totalitarian instinct is showing through this debate with his insistence I submit to BV's 'stand with us or stand against us' edict, and as he has put it 'tick a box'. It seems stuartcapel believes there are only two options in this debate. For the record, the Geelong Baseball Club added our own third option which, in essence, rejected the current proposal put forward by BV. I'm happy for people to judge my willingness to support regional baseball on my actions. I happy for people to judge my opinions based on the statements I've put forward on this forum. It seems pointless to engage in a debate with someone unprepared to submit to honest debate and consideration of the facts at hand.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 16:07:22 GMT 10
None of this is or ever should be about individuals.
While I appreciate the sentiment that you express, stu, the sport owes no-one anything. It will be here long after all of us are gone, hopefully in better shape.
This has been a vigorous and worthwhile debate that is well worth having.
I support the concept of the Regional Round – in principle – although it is clear that plenty of people either do not share such enthusiasm at this time or they object to the way in which the proposal was presented to the main stakeholders, the clubs.
It’s a democracy. That’s what we do.
Whether the viewpoints and the various arguments are taken on board by our decision-makers remains to be seen.
|
|
|
Post by perfeckt on Mar 13, 2012 7:26:15 GMT 10
The discussions, statements and opinions of the previous posts on this thread are what I love about this forum.
|
|