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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 8, 2012 13:59:40 GMT 10
Nathan, if I related the outlay to my own financial means, the project would not get to first base. ;D When I suggested the initiative would require "not a huge outlay overall" I meant precisely that. Overall. That is to say, I am confident the costs could be covered by council investment, sponsorship, maybe a BV component and other sources - without putting players to extra expense. Of course it would be difficult for students, apprentices, unemployed and the others you mentioned to stump up extra cash for the weekend - including the large number of young players playing Division One with Doncaster and Waverley, in particular. BV would need to be sure, before proceeding, that an extra financial burden was not placed on players and officials. If BV did or could provide a reassurance to that effect, then one of the principal objections would be dealt with. First base! Say hi on your way past! Unfortunately, and this is the big hole in the idea, they have explicitly stated that all financial burden will be placed on the players and officials. Yes, they have made a passing mention of using potential revenue to offset costs, but, as I've already noted, only after 'promotional/development' activites are covered. Knowing what Wangaratta has paid for the U/16 Winter Carnival, it would be chewed up pretty quickly... even in full, it wouldn't cover the expenses of one team. This will undoubtably burden players and clubs with additional costs.
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Post by richunwin on Mar 8, 2012 14:28:39 GMT 10
I don't post on here at all but this topic has me pretty fired up
I totally agree with Nate, the passive aggressive way the "proposal" was worded was an insult to to all the clubs that work hard to promote this game we all love. This idea by BV to read like a grab for cash for the front office nothing more. They saw an opportunity for another revenue stream and jumped at without thinking of how the members would react.
I am on the committee at Melbourne Baseball Club and this proposal was spoken spoken about in our committee meeting on Tuesday and was shouted down in no uncertain terms by us. I am more than happy to go public with the fact that Melbourne will not be voting in favour of this.
Without going over old ground and repeating what others have already said, the costs associated with this are far greater than any benefits to clubs and players. If BV had of gone out and said with the added revenue we expect from this we will be looking to under take projects such as........... I could see some benefit there. But they didn't.
Has anyone been up to these regional areas? How strong are the sports clubs up there? Would they actually embrace two baseball clubs that they have never heard of playing a sport they know nothing about? I have been up there (like I am sure others have) and the cricket/netball/tennis clubs are very strong and very much like a family. How are they going to react to baseball coming in? If there was to be a regional round, wouldn't it make more sense to play the ABL in regional areas. Aces v Syd in Mildura? Aces v Adel in Horsham? At least that way the standard is at it best and a true reflection of the sport at its best in the country.
KC, you know I rate your work but I have to totally disagree with you and let you know that you are thinking that all baseball are either young or students. You are forgetting guys with families, wife's girl friends and taking them with you adds to the cost of this. Difficult for me to say as I am single but you have to take into account families of players who may not want to leave them at home. Its not just an end of season trip, that's looking at this through rose coloured glasses.
My final point on this, well maybe I have two more. why is it that BV jump straight into the deep end with this proposal. Why not adopt a toe in the water stance. BV offer two clubs a chance to play in a regional area next season. Clubs are free to accept of decline the offer. Clubs take up the offer and get help from BV in terms of financial support back to its members. At least then we are able to see if it works, what are the traps? what can we learn? What are the costs involved once we actually do it?
There are just to many questions and not enough answers as far as I am concerned.
Rich
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Post by stuartcapel on Mar 8, 2012 14:29:03 GMT 10
Wow.
Just wow.
You have a bee firmly entremched in your bonnet, don't you.
It is thoroughly unfair to raise the ABL draw - you know full well the ABL draw has not been released and it is petty to have even brought it up. I won't even look at a Sheffield Shield draw but I'd say the Bushrangers haven't played too many Shield matches in the country this season (may have a season or two ago from memory). In fact, I think the last game they took out of Melbourne was a one day game to...Geelong, versus South Australia, who won the game in a match the Bushrangers complained about substandard playing conditions from memory. Yet they still get their Premier Cricket teams who have students and people with families to the country once a year...and would you believe it, the darn thing works!
As for your second question - no need for an answer - it's irrelevant to the argument. What extra costs will the Geelong Baseball Club and it's players have to underwrite by playing a 4pm game in Ballarat that would be in place of a Wednesday night game at Altona? A few extra petrol dollars (offset somewhat by no entry costs in Ballarat...work with me here KC), perhaps less expenditure on baseballs should Ballarat underwrite them. I fail to see where the extra costs you keep talking about come into it. No one is holding a gun to your head and making you stay there the night before or the night after.
I need not remind you that Geelong also hosted two Aces pre-season games this season just gone. My wife and I attended both. Yeah, cost us a buck in fuel, and would have been easier for us had we only gone to Altona, but for the betterment of the game, the fixtures were delegated to Geelong and we supported both the Aces and Geelong (I doubt your canteen was Aces run on those nights) by attending. Some of us can do it, and we didn't even have to use the excuse of Chelsea only having three senior teams or the weather radar being bad (as it was for anyone driving down the highway for the Saturday game) not to attend.
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Post by Marshy on Mar 8, 2012 14:54:22 GMT 10
Welcome Rich!
Great to have you on board. Pretty decent first post!
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Post by Marshy on Mar 8, 2012 15:06:43 GMT 10
It seems to me that this discussion has broken into two factions.
1. Whether the way BV handled the "proposal" was appropriate and 2. Whether the proposal has merit (given additional, more in depth, investigation).
I would like to propose that we dump the first one. What's done is done. Let's focus on ways to make this happen and whether it's actually worth it.
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 8, 2012 15:12:58 GMT 10
It is thoroughly unfair to raise the ABL draw - you know full well the ABL draw has not been released and it is petty to have even brought it up. Stu, thanks for the answers... wasn't aware the Aces schedule hadn't been released yet... I thought with your association with the Aces, you'd be a good source of info. Since it hasn't been released, I'll work on the assumption it will be the same amount of games as this past season... none. Perhaps it would be good to see our professionals setting an example first and providing the base for this program before we put the expectation on amatuers... just an idea. As for your second question - no need for an answer - it's irrelevant to the argument. What extra costs will the Geelong Baseball Club and it's players have to underwrite by playing a 4pm game in Ballarat that would be in place of a Wednesday night game at Altona? A few extra petrol dollars (offset somewhat by no entry costs in Ballarat...work with me here KC), perhaps less expenditure on baseballs should Ballarat underwrite them. I fail to see where the extra costs you keep talking about come into it. No one is holding a gun to your head and making you stay there the night before or the night after. Ah Stu, the straw man argument... you're right, a single game in Ballarat in place of a mid-week at Altona would be cost neutral... but that's not the premise of the proposal, is it? Or have you not actually read it? Games on both days of a weekend, in places such as Mildura, Wangaratta, Shepparton... this would require (at least) overnight accomdation, additional transportation, meals while away from home. Directly from BV's proposal, Stu, is this statement, "Travel, accomodation and meals for teams will be borne by the players/clubs." Even they're honest enough to admit this will create a cost... how about you, mate? As for councils now stumping up for costs such as balls, not sure if you have the authority to make that call... it definitely wasn't mentioned in BV's proposal. Of course I could have just asked my uncle for them if she wasn't my aunt. I need not remind you that Geelong also hosted two Aces pre-season games this season just gone... Correct... after our council was approached by the Aces, we hosted the Aces games... Geelong was preferred because it's a better venue than Altona and there was no cost for the use of our venue. Yes, canteen takings were ours to keep... don't think any other club hosting an event would begrudge us that? And again, Stu, you had the choice to pay your money and spend your time... you're still yet to comment on BV's conduct in coercing clubs and players to agree with this idea... don't know you and only asking, but, vested interests?
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 8, 2012 15:17:53 GMT 10
It seems to me that this discussion has broken into two factions. 1. Whether the way BV handled the "proposal" was appropriate and 2. Whether the proposal has merit (given additional, more in depth, investigation). I would like to propose that we dump the first one. What's done is done. Let's focus on ways to make this happen and whether it's actually worth it. Sorry Marshy, but I think the more important issue at hand right now is the strategies our administrators are using to control our sport... as I've established, this is not a one-off, but the continuation of a pattern. If we ignore it, what's done is done and will continue to be done. Unless we expect better, why would they be better? The original pupose of this post was to highlight the coercive and belittling nature of the proposal... If everyone believes it's a non-issue, I guess it gives me no-one to discuss it with... otherwise, I suggest it remain relevant to the topic.
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Post by Marshy on Mar 8, 2012 15:43:36 GMT 10
Nate, I don't think anyone would dare question your commitment, passion or conviction, however sometimes these can lead to stubbornness.
BV are a governing body. They do have the power to mandate. That's not what they did.
Without getting into Hiddo's head, I can't say exactly what he was thinking when he wrote it (or signed it off), but to me, it looks like he was trying to get people to think about their response before, as happens in some cases when new ideas are proposed, just dismissing it as a bad idea.
Did he do it well? No, he didn't, but I am pretty sure he doesn't have a masters degree in effective stakeholder communication either.
By all means, go back to him as a club and provide him with that feedback, but I don't think there is merit in debating it here.
I am pretty sure that BV had a "communications person" and sacked him. Here's an area that a trained resource in effective communication would have come in handy.
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Post by Marshy on Mar 8, 2012 16:09:23 GMT 10
I've just been thinking, what's wrong with actually saying "On behalf of our club, I acknowledge our lack of willingness to promote baseball in regional areas, and therefore wish the Summer League Committee to not schedule the Regional Round"?
Not speaking for either of my clubs here, but personally, I have no interest in promoting baseball in regional areas. Harsh I know, but I hesitate to say, probably how others feel too.
I'm sure other members would agree, it's hard enough promoting baseball in your own suburb, let alone another part of the state.
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Post by wako on Mar 8, 2012 16:46:20 GMT 10
I've just been thinking, what's wrong with actually saying "On behalf of our club, I acknowledge our lack of willingness to promote baseball in regional areas, and therefore wish the Summer League Committee to not schedule the Regional Round"? Because it's the only way to choose an option that expresses the wish that the regional round not be scheduled, but loads an additional statement ("I acknowledge our lack of willingness..") that may or may not be true. It doesn't take a communications expert to refrain from using non-sequiturs and asking loaded questions (in reference to BV, not you, Marshy) In the spirit of providing alternative suggestions rather than just throwing stones, how about the following options for clubs to choose from: * YES, we agree with the premise of the Regional Round ** YES, we agree with and would commit to a Regional Round as described ** NO, we do not agree with the Regional Round as described *** WHY NOT? (...space for a list of reasons...) *** SUGGESTED CHANGES? (...space for suggested changes...) * NO, we do not agree with the premise of the Regional Round ** WHY NOT? (...space for a list of reasons...) ** SUGGESTED ALTERNATIVES? (...space for suggested alternative activities/directions...)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2012 16:52:51 GMT 10
Good to have you on board Rich.
No, I haven't forgotten that people other than students and the young play baseball. They were among examples mentioned of people who could find it tough financially.
While I like the concept of the Regional Round (for reasons outlined earlier), my concern - as I've mentioned a couple of times - is that players and officials should not have to bear an additional burden on top of what is already a relatively costly sporting commitment.
Some players will have other reasons for not favouring the proposal. That is entirely their prerogative. In the end you'd hope that BV would steer clear of any initiative that was clearly unpopular with a majority of baseball people.
However, it seems clear that much/most of the adverse reaction relates to the way in which the memorandum was worded and interpreted.
It would be a pity if the perception of heavy-handedness and "coercion" prevented proper discussion of the merits (or otherwise) of the proposal. If it is shot down totally at this point in time, I expect the concept - or something similar involving the regions - would not again see the light of day for many years.
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Post by p26 on Mar 8, 2012 22:14:19 GMT 10
Being perfectly honest here, I work a 50 hour week, bust my a*** to get to trainings, mid-week games and weekend games. 33 of them a season, which I love. I also have to manage a fiancé who has no interest in baseball and hates the fact the we only spend half a weekend together for pretty much the whole summer. I also have family and friends that I try and see on the one day a week that I don't play baseball or work. I have missed one scheduled weekend game of Baseball In the last three years (to attend a wedding in port douglas).
If a regional round is scheduled next season, I probably will take the weekend off. Not because I am disloyal to my team, not because I "have a lack of willingness to support baseball in regional areas", but because if I go away for the weekend to play men's baseball, my fiance's reaction will probably rule me eligible to play women's baseball the following week.
The timeframe discussed for scheduling thes games will mean most clubs will be missing their young kids to nat champs, their best players to the aces and a bunch of other guys in the same situation as me. Given this is likely to mean a lot of clubs will have number of their best players missing, firstly this probably means that we're not actually showcasing the best of local baseball, it is probably also the reason that lower grades will need to be cancelled as some clubs will need this just to field a 1s side.
I agree with the sentiment of promoting the game as far and wide as possible, I disagree with the execution.
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Post by stuartcapel on Mar 9, 2012 7:40:35 GMT 10
Vested interests? Nice! In regards the Melbourne Aces, (sorry, JetCouriers Melbourne Aces) I'm purely a JCMA member who was (and still is), disgruntled with the lack of content and information they produce on their own club. I stated here one time that if they gave me some information, I'd put things together for them, and then went ahead and did so. What you saw on the BV pages throughout the year was all research and with a bit of help from KC in regards team changes, those pieces were put together without any information or assistance from the Aces front office.
But I digress...
In regards the proposal, it is quite clear that as it stands there are issues with the proposal and to expect a full weekend is pushing the friendship so to speak, and the language in the check box doesn't help either.
So, for now, you shake your head at the wording of the check box, and tick it anyway, and perhaps get the club secretary to pen a letter to BV disagreeing with the wording of it and how it was offensive to your club and its members.
And then, you get on the front foot, and instead of straight canning the idea, offer a viable solution, which meets everyone at the half way point.
For next season, propose that one venue, in this case, Ballarat, if it is going to host a weekend of baseball, be used next season, effectively as a trial run for years to come.
On the Saturday, have either a junior rep (should a carnival be in Victoria at a time) or women's match (I dare say Springvale and Doncaster would enjoy going to battle in front of a few hundred, even in an exhibition game if need be) before a Division One match - let's say Doncaster-Werribee. On the Sunday, make it a double header starting at midday between say Melbourne and Waverley followed by Essendon and Geelong. This way, no one needs to be displaced from their bed for a single night, and the center has four games of baseball. If Ballarat enters Division Two for example next season, make their Division Two experience part of the weekend as well.
For the sake of junior clinics, should there be some sponsorship for the event, maybe each of the competing clubs can have a couple of players/volunteers head up the night before their game day and be put up, with the costs being covered by the sponsorship, then on the Saturday morning, a clinic is run, and you do the same thing on the Sunday with another group of senior players/coaches.
Now, what happens will probably be in some respects different to the above proposal, but I'd suggest that something like this, as a trial of something for the future, would keep costs to participants (and their clubs) at a minimum, take up less of their time, and still provide good value for the centre hosting it.
All you have to do is offer to meet BV half-way and then, hopefully, it can be as painless for all concerned.
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Post by Marshy on Mar 9, 2012 7:49:37 GMT 10
Pure class Stu, but I have come to expect nothing less from you.
Being part of the solution instead of compounding the problem.
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Post by richunwin on Mar 9, 2012 9:27:57 GMT 10
Stu,
You make some solid points there. But I think you are taking the easy option. Continually using Ballarat as as example is kind the easy way out. It is the closest regional centre to Melbourne, easy to get to and not that that much further than Geelong (sorry if that's wrong, didn't have time to check Google maps on the distance...haha).
My issue is when we start talking about playing in Mildura, Bairnsdale and Warrnambool. This is when things get crazy for me. The driving time to those areas is far greater. You mentioned playing on a Sunday afternoon. Worst case scenario here, Melbourne play who ever in the late game. Is it safe to then expect us to drive 3 hours home so can be at work on Monday? Or are we expected to cover another night of accom and take annual leave for the Monday?
I agree with the toe in water idea, as I said in my first post. Rather than forcing clubs to do this lets investigate how it works first. What are the pitfalls? BV am I sure could talk two teams into playing in a regional area if they were spoken to and BV would cover the associated costs for the first year only. Use them as a test case, following that we are able to make a better informed decision as to the viability of the proposal. It is a prefect solution, no. But tat least there will be some questions answered.
In its current format I will be clear in saying that I and my club Melbourne are against this. If the proposal is re worked to something that will benefit all clubs then we will happily listen.
The big question is still yet to be answered however, is it fair to cancel all other grades on the regional round? These guys pay their fees and even if they don't travel with the 1's they are still losing money. Same fees for less games. Is that fair?
Rich
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 9, 2012 10:02:04 GMT 10
Some solid points overnight...
Marshy, you're right, a more professional communicator would have delivered this proposal more effectively. But isn't it a sad indictment on our administration that between them, as a collective of professional sporting administrators that this was the best they could come up with??? Wako's right, it shouldn't take a Master's in Communication to understand how to ask a question with regard for the person you're asking.
And yes, those that know me have all agreed with you that I can be stubborn... of couse, I refuse to admit it... but, if now isn't the time to demand better, when is?
KC, spot on, the delivery will turn people of before they even give consideration to the idea, and that is only going to diminish any benefits the proposal might have had. The long-term viability of this idea will be damaged because of the delivery... if we're strong in our condemnation of the delivery, perhaps BV will reassess how they deliver the proposal and give it the chance it deserves to succeed... don't get me wrong, I think the idea in it's current form is a bad one, but I think general purpose has merit.
Marshy, there's nothing wrong with saying you don't want to support regional baseball... it doesn't even make you a bad person... at this level of amatuer sport, my opinion is you owe nothing more to the sport than to pay your fees and show up and play... that's why those that do more are so valuable and why I'm so proud of the culture of the Baycats, because so many do more than the minimum. The problem is, other than agreeing with BV, we were given no other choice than to not support regional baseball... and really, BV believed the power of that suggestion would be to force people to agree with the idea... I expect better.
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 9, 2012 10:11:09 GMT 10
Vested interests? Nice! But I digress... In regards the proposal, it is quite clear that as it stands there are issues with the proposal and to expect a full weekend is pushing the friendship so to speak, and the language in the check box doesn't help either. So, for now, you shake your head at the wording of the check box, and tick it anyway, and perhaps get the club secretary to pen a letter to BV disagreeing with the wording of it and how it was offensive to your club and its members. All you have to do is offer to meet BV half-way and then, hopefully, it can be as painless for all concerned. Stu, honestly didn't know your association with either BV or Aces, but your avoidance of the communication issue made me wonder... Your hypotheticals over the past couple of days all have strong points... but they're not really relevant to the current proposal because they're not what BV have offered. Not only that, BV haven't asked for us to provide alternative options for consideration... they've asked for general feedback on their one option. That's a long way from meeting half-way! While I appreciate your spirit of letting sleeping dogs lie and moving on with the job, we must hold BV to account for their poor treatment of our clubs... how many times can we shake our heads and send our strongly worded letters, only to see the pattern of disregard for our members and administrators continue? Speaking of dogs... you didn't answer my question about the puppies yesterday... A or B?
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 9, 2012 10:26:20 GMT 10
I'm sure I've annoyed the crap out of you all over the past couple of days... I'll try not to hog the debate anymore... a couple of things before I move on...
Our clubs need to become better equipped to work with BV to achieve better outcomes, both for ourselves and our sport.
Right now, we have around 30 clubs acting individually in the purpose of self-interest... at P&S meetings, no clear message is ever delivered on what clubs need because the noise of everyone working for themselves drowns it out... not only do we hurt ourselves collectively, but we don't give BV a real chance to deliver what we need the most because they must find it impossible to prioritse the needs of each individual club.
I believe it's time for clubs to unite... to use your collective power to prioritise and deliver the message to BV... this is what we need and we're united to achieve it... During the off-season, I will be working with our president to push a better forum for clubs to present their issues and unite our collective efforts.
Before you make assumptions... my political leanings are conservative, I hate unions, and, to a degree, think collectivism breeds groupthink... but, the status quo is inefficient and we need to improve.
On the issue of regional baseball, I agree with Rich... BV need to create incentives for clubs to travel to regional areas... there needs to be mutual benefit, not just what's good for the sport.
The Baycats went to Canada this year... among the many motivators that led us to that decision, the opportunity to promote our brand and market our club was paramount... during the build up, our club received more press coverage, and more sponsorships, more corporate engagement than at any other time in our history... it was a great marketing ploy!!!
I would do the same in a heartbeat in regional Victoria if I believed there was some promotional benefit to our brand.
If BV offered an opportunity for clubs to promote the sport in regional Victoria, with assistance in fundraising and promotion of our club to those areas, that would be a great incentive for me to consider the idea... mutual benefit... our club gets great exposure in new areas, BV get's a Div 1 club promoting the sport in regional areas.
Forget the in-depth logistics... these details can all be worked out... how do you provide mutual benefit to all parties involved? If you can, they'll figure out how to make it work.
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Post by stuartcapel on Mar 9, 2012 11:07:47 GMT 10
I think you will find, auseagle, that I answered your question on the puppies in the appropriate fashion.
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jrj
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Post by jrj on Mar 9, 2012 14:03:17 GMT 10
At the risk of getting howled down, what is the big deal about playing in the country? It is after all only 1 weekend over a season of 33 rounds. Do you think that country associations don't have the level of facilities that are enjoyed in the Metro area (which is somewhat of a misnomer given the sometimes poor facilities in and around Melbourne - note I said sometimes), or is it that we country people should not have the opportunity to watch baseball played at a higher level. It may just be what is required to give baseball a higher profile in the country areas and get some much needed media attention, which in turn will help baseball overall. I have read the posts regarding the BV initiative and I agree that the memo should have been worded differently but the basic premise is what it is, that is, play 1 weekend in the country. In terms of the lower grades missing out, then the rounds that are played in the country should be stand alone rounds and that would cut out some midweek games (that a lot of players/officials/supporters complain about).
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Post by braves6 on Mar 9, 2012 14:21:54 GMT 10
Like. Well said jrj
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Post by pirates on Mar 9, 2012 15:15:45 GMT 10
I suppose what has been highlighted is that as a group we need to address what is needed at a club level, which from point of view is the most important thing. As a group we need input into these strategies.
At the end of the day we are there as players, administrators, social members and promoters of baseball but if we don’t look after our own backyard first we disappear very quickly. It’s easy for a Geelong to state that we went to Canada to promote the club and they got more sponsorship ext ext this is you doing what you need to do for your club, it does not help a Chelsea or Bendigo or a Preston, as an example, IMO. Geelong has benefitted from certain situations and congratulations to them because they have worked hard and more importantly worked smart to develop what they have there. But not all clubs have the opportunities to work with. So when you state that all club are self interested then that’s a good thing because who’s going to look after them not Geelong or the league. That’s why we have a league to address the overall baseball promotions across the state. The clubs are responsible for their members and to do what they can to promote the game around their areas.
As a club we spent years and I’m talking about many years having T-Ball teams and comps to promote baseball and our club outside our area when we did not have many kids around our suburb, when we were at the old ground. We certainly promoted the game but saw almost zero return to our club but certainly introduced many kids to baseball for other clubs to pick up. Same as the idea that having a regional round, this will do little to improve the baseball at those locations. Preston for a number of years went and played for what we called the Ashes against a regional side and it was fantastic for all concerned.
Having 2 sides from Melbourne play in regional areas would not mean much but play against aside from the area then you would be seeing more spectators and local interest from the media. To ask all the div one teams to go one weekend to play is an ok idea but not a realistic situation as at that time of year for all the reasons as mention by others is ridicules.
A great idea for those that have the time and availability, may be have representative sides from all that are able. Say an all-star team from not just div one but all levels and let the club players from regional areas represent their country teams. I would have thought you would need to have that competition to create an atmosphere so it actual means something and the players would be representing their regions, that’s when you would receive lots of attention from spectators and media..
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Post by pirates on Mar 9, 2012 15:23:02 GMT 10
by the way the league killed off the best baseball promotions when it stopped having the Ballarat state team trials…..that was a great move let’s not have a whole weekend in a regional area promoting baseball with under 14s-16’s and 18s. still does not make sense to me. The best junior baseball weekends are the provincial carnivals, there’s you regional promotions right where you want to be promoting junior baseball.
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 9, 2012 15:50:19 GMT 10
At the end of the day we are there as players, administrators, social members and promoters of baseball but if we don’t look after our own backyard first we disappear very quickly. It’s easy for a Geelong to state that we went to Canada to promote the club and they got more sponsorship ext ext this is you doing what you need to do for your club, it does not help a Chelsea or Bendigo or a Preston, as an example, IMO. Geelong has benefitted from certain situations and congratulations to them because they have worked hard and more importantly worked smart to develop what they have there. But not all clubs have the opportunities to work with. So when you state that all club are self interested then that’s a good thing because who’s going to look after them not Geelong or the league. That’s why we have a league to address the overall baseball promotions across the state. The clubs are responsible for their members and to do what they can to promote the game around their areas. Pirates, I agree with part of what you've written... and, I don't think I wrote there was an issue with clubs acting in their own self-interests... my education is in economics and I'm a big believer in Adam Smith's Invisible Hand theory... a group of individuals acting in their own self-interests will create a positive outcome for the entire group. My concern is in our delivery to BV, our power is deconstructed because our approach is as 30 individuals... if we could unite, discuss all our issues, prioritise and deliver a single, united message, I believe we could achieve better outcomes. I also believe it would assist BV in understanding what's important for the clubs, collectively... and, hopefully change the dynamic that's currently in place between BV and the clubs. I have no doubt, BV are tired of presenting ideas and hearing 30 different ways they should suck eggs... it must feel like they get nowhere and consensus is impossible... I'm guessing it's this frustration that leads to BV not wanting to hear feedback and communicating proposals in this dictatorial, autocratic manner. If we can present a clear, single message, outlining what outcomes we want achieved, what resources we need, and how BV can assist us, I think we'll find our self-interests being protected better than they are now. I used the example of our club going to Canada only to highlight one of the motivators... publicity... I'm not sure what advantage you assume Geelong has over other clubs that makes the same venture impossible, but if Preston wanted to, why not? All costs were covered by money raised specifically for that trip, not a dollar came from club coffers... the players were engaged in the fundrasing and sponsor activities, while I conducted all public relations activities (contacting media agencies, etc)... none of this stuff is exclusive to us because we're in Geelong and could be easily replicated. And what good did we do Preston or Chelsea or any other club? Call the guys at Grand Forks and enquire if your club could be considered... mention you're from the same league as Geelong, and I'm sure they won't be able to say yes fast enough... perhaps we set a blue print for how other clubs could do it... perhaps we inspired one other person to try something new for their club... perhaps we gave some ideas to other clubs on how to raise funds in the off-season... maybe none of those things, but not all benefits are easy to quantify. Not a dig, just giving an alternate perspective...
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Post by stockley on Mar 9, 2012 16:29:45 GMT 10
At the risk of getting howled down, what is the big deal about playing in the country? It is after all only 1 weekend over a season of 33 rounds. Do you think that country associations don't have the level of facilities that are enjoyed in the Metro area (which is somewhat of a misnomer given the sometimes poor facilities in and around Melbourne - note I said sometimes), or is it that we country people should not have the opportunity to watch baseball played at a higher level. It may just be what is required to give baseball a higher profile in the country areas and get some much needed media attention, which in turn will help baseball overall. I have read the posts regarding the BV initiative and I agree that the memo should have been worded differently but the basic premise is what it is, that is, play 1 weekend in the country. In terms of the lower grades missing out, then the rounds that are played in the country should be stand alone rounds and that would cut out some midweek games (that a lot of players/officials/supporters complain about). jrj, the problem hasn't really ever been about the facilities - although that maybe a concern in some areas. The problem is more based around the concept that the players/clubs are seemingly expected to fork out the money to go up to the country and play games that they're already paying to play, with what appears like no financial help from the league instigating it. What maybe a better option (or at least an alternative), is the concept of sending the Aces up for a country round. Get 2 ABL teams touring around the country for one round - and attempt to garner support for the new league - and build baseball's profile in those areas at the same time... Surely giving the country folk a proper spectacle - probably at no charge to the patrons - would provide much more interested than any country round of Div1 could initially?
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 9, 2012 17:03:57 GMT 10
I think you will find, auseagle, that I answered your question on the puppies in the appropriate fashion. Agreed... unfortunately, I think BV might find many clubs answer their proposition in a similar manner.
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Post by stuartcapel on Mar 9, 2012 19:16:18 GMT 10
Which is your perogative auseagle, however that is where you get your combine together with a group of clubs and propose an alternative.
The alternative doesn't involve long travel, it involves Ballarat as a basic first time example. If it works there, then you can branch out and explore other options. If it doesn't work, either work out why and improve it or put the idea away for a few years.
Is Wangaratta et al. first season too big a stretch? Absolutely. Is asking players and clubs to foot the bill excessive? Of course.
So come up with a situation where the country wins and clubs don't lose as a worst case scenario? Unfortunately, from what I've read, one person in particular should tick the box as they certainly don't care about country baseball.
As for the Aces doing it, I can't begin to suggest why that's not a feesable suggestion.
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Post by stockley on Mar 9, 2012 19:25:30 GMT 10
Gee.. I hope your not talking about me stu... really would be a shame to have you so far off track...
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Post by frita on Mar 10, 2012 10:04:16 GMT 10
Not that anyone would care but I think the idea of regional baseball is wasted energy and has no need here! I would have thought a good working relationship between members, clubs, BV, should be the priority before we "take the sport to the bush". Reading other threads/posts this is definatley not the case (working relationship) and I think there is more pressing issues that need sorting before this sport can go "country". If the members/clubs do nothing about this it will stay business as usual.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2012 12:03:04 GMT 10
Not that anyone would care but I think the idea of regional baseball is wasted energy and has no need here! I would have thought a good working relationship between members, clubs, BV, should be the priority before we "take the sport to the bush". Reading other threads/posts this is definatley not the case (working relationship) and I think there is more pressing issues that need sorting before this sport can go "country". If the members/clubs do nothing about this it will stay business as usual. www.essendonbaseball.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/like.gif{/img]
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