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Post by Coalmined on Feb 25, 2012 18:32:34 GMT 10
I reckon there comes a time for a manager to protect his players to the point of getting tossed. Arguably that is a manger's job and I don't believe that can be classes as dissent. Unsportsmanlike and abusive... Well that's a matter of what was said. However, if a player decides to take it on himself to express the same sentiment, then harsher penalties need apply. That is actually in our rules. Everybody (including myself) has referred to a divvy 2 player. I am willing to be corrected but I believe he was the manager. He has managed winter and summer without playing for the last 4 years. If he was playing they must have been short.
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Post by wako on Feb 26, 2012 9:35:45 GMT 10
You can't compare incidents and infer inconsistency on the part of the tribunal simply because two incidents with the same charge(s) got different penalties, you need to know the facts that lead to the charges. If I say to the umpire from my natural position on the field or in the dugout "You're fvcking kidding, blue!" I could be charged with exactly the same offences as if I got in his face and called him a "Fvcking little diseased, canker-sored, congenitally retarded fat, fvcking cvnt". Do any of you think I can expect to receive the same penalties for both incidents?
More serious incidents warrant more serious penalties and the charges laid can cover incidents of greatly varying seriousness. Note that I am not saying the tribunal aren't inconsistent, merely that you can't say they are just because players got different penalties for incidents for which they had to answer similar charges.
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Post by eckersley43 on Feb 27, 2012 21:57:00 GMT 10
Good points (if a little brutal Wako) the charges don't give details, severity or context. With Brad Harman..way I heard it from someone on the inside was that the plate umpire insisted on the removal of a well respected club official who was "commenting" on the umpires prior call.I don't know what was actually said, but the "blow up" revolved around the secondary issue.Anyone who accuses Brad Harman of ego obviously doesn't know him, and maybe so many of the charges not being sustained reflected in the 3 weeks. As for the Major League factor..bit insulting to the tribunal members. And yes, player attitude/honesty is important at the tribunal and is not "yes Sir" etc as alleged.Some players are their own worst enemies at tribunals..aggressive/blatantly dishonest etc..why shouldn't they cop more than a player who has the courage to be honest and own up?
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Post by wako on Feb 28, 2012 11:00:16 GMT 10
Good points (if a little brutal Wako) the charges don't give details, severity or context. With Brad Harman..way I heard it from someone on the inside was that the plate umpire insisted on the removal of a well respected club official who was "commenting" on the umpires prior call.I don't know what was actually said, but the "blow up" revolved around the secondary issue.Anyone who accuses Brad Harman of ego obviously doesn't know him, and maybe so many of the charges not being sustained reflected in the 3 weeks. As for the Major League factor..bit insulting to the tribunal members. And yes, player attitude/honesty is important at the tribunal and is not "yes Sir" etc as alleged.Some players are their own worst enemies at tribunals..aggressive/blatantly dishonest etc..why shouldn't they cop more than a player who has the courage to be honest and own up? Interesting info, eck. I would hope that an incident would never happen in which someone said something to an umpire (or anyone involved in a game) so severe as the example I gave, but I tried to think of something extreme to illustrate the difference between that and between fairly mild AoL and Dissent.
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Post by eckersley43 on Feb 28, 2012 14:09:34 GMT 10
Totally agree Wako..I think spectators in a public place should have a bit of latitude..as long as they aren't over the top or obscene..why can't they voice an opinion that a call was a "shocker" etc Also brings into play that managers are expected to have total control of spectators or be punished..I would have thought that a word along the lines of requesting the manager to get the spectator to tone in down or desist would have been better than insisting on his removal..that's a big call to enforce or agree with.
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Post by lonewolf75 on Feb 28, 2012 15:45:49 GMT 10
As our parks cannot be lockdown and are most part of park areas who can a manger be expected to control a member of the public let alone asking them to leave.
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Post by pirates on Feb 28, 2012 16:25:53 GMT 10
Interesting thing is when you go to the Aces games the umps cop a fair bit of stick along with the visiting team and at very close range, they don’t start pointing at coaches or officials to remove the spectators.
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Post by perfeckt on Feb 28, 2012 21:41:59 GMT 10
There is no way an umpire can legally eject a spectator from a public ground. That doesn't mean he or she can't eject (technically) a club member and if that club member is identified by the umpire, then they are subject to the same rules of conduct. My guess is that the blues have enough to deal with on the field of play and don't usually react to dissent from the "gallery". I've certainly been a part of that vocal "gallery" but I've never been foul in my loud critiques. "Ego is not a dirty word".
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Post by aueagle30 on Feb 29, 2012 10:08:22 GMT 10
One thing I haven't seen mentioned (sorry if I've missed it), specifically regarding the Harmon case...
Four of the eight charges were thrown out at the tribunal (AOL, Abusive Language, Failing to Leave the Field, Remonstration)... my understanding is these four charges were not included on the original ejection report provided to the player at the conclusion to the game, but were subsequently added to the report.
Found not guilty on two charges (Unsportsmanlike Conduct, Dissent)...
Found guilty of two charges (Abusive language directed at an umpire, Disobeying umpires direction)...
Wako, you're right... there are degrees of severity in a given situation, as represented in the umpire's report where severity is graded Low, Medium, or High...
But, probably more important to the claim of inconsistency in comparison between Harmon and Ralph is the actual charges each was found guilty of...
Using a red herring like this to support claims of 'have's and have not's' being treated differently are BS and scream of excuse-making. As is consistent with our broader society, class distinction is often more relevant to those who perceive themselves as the 'lower-class'...
Trust me Wyatt33, Division One club's are too busy focusing on the business of being the best we can to spend our time colluding with BV and each other to opress Division Two club.
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Post by aueagle30 on Feb 29, 2012 10:51:08 GMT 10
Further to this topic...
Regarding the manager's responsibility to assist umpire's in controlling member's of the crowd, I absolutely believe manager's must be accountable for crowd behaviour.
Umpires shouldn't be left to themselves to handle these on their own... as manager's, we know our fans and often (sometimes?) have their respect... if an umpire tries to control the fan, it can inflame the situation... where a manager intervenes, it can have greater impact.
My understanding is BV has a formal policy or playing condition requiring manager's to act on fan behaviour when requested by umpires... any claim it's impossible for manager's to do so is thoughtless... if Shane Warne can control the behaviour of 10's of 1000's of drunk fans, we can surely control the behaviour of one or two...
And while our fields are public parks, most clubs have would have a tenancy agreement with their local council... part of that agreement would require the club to ensure all participants in the intended activity behave in a socially accepted manner... clubs have the ability to remove and restrict members of the public while the venue is being used for it's intended purpose under the tenancy agreement...
Arguing the manager's focus should be on the field doesn't excuse us either... while the umpire's request may be to the manager, I'm sure umpires don't expect the manager to take leave from the field and deal with the situation... the manager can engage an assistant coach to adminstrator to deal with directly with the problem, while still focusing on running the game.
Didn't see the incident involving Harmon, so this is not a comment on his conduct, only what I believe is our collective responsibility as managers.
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Post by wyatt33 on Mar 1, 2012 7:53:02 GMT 10
I'll put it to you that there is indeed a 'clique' in baseball Victoria, and it's community. I'll also put it to you that that clique does not include the mulgrave baseball club. That's fine, never really a big fan of certain members of our community, but I believe there is a preconceived perception of certain clubs, and that they aren't treated as well as others. It is funny however that when a certain member of said club, also happens to sponsor the local national team, as well as a couple of BV clubs and some state junior programs, I'd suggest that maybe they be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you!!!!! But I could be wrong....
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Post by stockley on Mar 1, 2012 8:18:40 GMT 10
I'll put it to you that there is indeed a 'clique' in baseball Victoria, and it's community. I'll also put it to you that that clique does not include the mulgrave baseball club. That's fine, never really a big fan of certain members of our community, but I believe there is a preconceived perception of certain clubs, and that they aren't treated as well as others. It is funny however that when a certain member of said club, also happens to sponsor the local national team, as well as a couple of BV clubs and some state junior programs, I'd suggest that maybe they be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you!!!!! But I could be wrong.... If there is indeed a 'clique' and your not a part of it, you're obviously not the only club thats not. Otherwise it wouldn't be so much of a clique as just the league. So in what respect are "certain clubs" not treated as well as others? Can you provide examples? You seem to be very determined that the world is against Mulgrave Baseball Club, and that its just not fair that the league isn't bending over backwards changing the rules to accommodate you! You even state in one of your previous posts that your firsts team has clearly been the best team all year. I could be reading the ladders wrong, but I don't see a clear buffer between you and the second place team. H3ll, you might not even end up on top of the ladder depending on the next two games! And then you have the front to intimate a threat in regards to league/Aces/state junior sponsorship... Do you speak directly for this sponsor, or for the club? Are you an official? What do the club think about you coming out and making threats like this?
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Post by wyatt33 on Mar 1, 2012 10:56:05 GMT 10
It's not a threat. Not at all. Just an opinion. I've spoken to the person, and there's no threat to withdraw anything. I'm just saying that you need to careful the way sponsors and benefactors get treated. This is not a big sport in the scheme of things, in this country, and any money we get in through sponsors, is greatly appreciated. However, as soon as it's taken for granted, that money could easily disappear. Respect is all that I'm asking to be given to these people. Oh and by the way, I'm speaking on my behalf, not necessarily the views of the mulgrave baseball club.
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Post by Marshy on Mar 1, 2012 11:22:02 GMT 10
Wyatt.
I tried to be diplomatic and polite and suggest to you that you need to change your tone and perhaps the message you're sending. Richo was right. It didn't land. Perhaps the subtle nature of my posts were too complex in their undertone for your uneducated brain. Here's a layman's version.
You want to know why you why you aren't in the "clique" as you call it. I can tell you in two words BUSH LEAGUE.
I am flabbergasted that you can't see that you are alienating members of this forum, who are in turn, members of the baseball community. We aren't a "clique" we just don't tolerate idiots.
If your club continues to allow you to spit out the "poor hard done by us" rubbish that constantly spews from you, then they too will alienate themselves.
Do you know Jason Akermanis? I get the impression you're Mulgrave's version.
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sbc
Junior Member
Posts: 36
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Post by sbc on Mar 1, 2012 15:06:03 GMT 10
Guys,
My name is Luke Searle. As president of the Mulgrave Baseball Cub I feel I can no longer remain silent. Wyatt is a passionate and valued member of the Mulgrave B.C who has every right to express his personal opinions in whichever way he sees fit. However, these views in no way represent the views of the Executive or the vast majority of Mulgrave Baseball Club’s members.
We are currently in the best season of our short history and things are on the improve on and off the field. The reason we are not eligible for Division One is entirely Mulgrave Baseball Club’s members responsibility and we at this stage have not improved enough in this area.
Furthermore I am 100% sure that Wyatt has no place discussing the position of any corporate sponsors who may happen to be aligned with the Mulgrave Baseball Club.
Luke Searle
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 17:25:14 GMT 10
A timely and appropriate response. Thanks Luke, good luck in the Finals !
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Post by frita on Mar 1, 2012 17:33:34 GMT 10
Hey sbc, I rekon you look like a samossa!!
While I'm here both arguments have some right and wrong but the one thing in common is a passion for baseball but don't get to worked up over inconsistencies that have been in this game for years. (junior requirements/promotion, relagation/clique's/imports/blah blah blah) YOU are the only one who gets the ulcer.
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Post by wako on Mar 1, 2012 18:33:10 GMT 10
I was going to post, but I have to rush off to a Division 1 Clique Conspiracy meeting. We've got a secret 12-month advance forecast from BOM and are working on a fixture where Division 2 clubs we don't like will be scheduled to play clubs they are favoured to beat on days when it will rain. Oops, I've said too much!
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Post by barb05 on Mar 1, 2012 18:46:53 GMT 10
Gold Marshy. But it still won't land.
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Post by Coalmined on Mar 1, 2012 19:17:06 GMT 10
SBC, Very insightful post. You seem like you are the right man to lead Mulgrave now and into the future. Hearing you speak you sound the right person to take Mulgrave were they need to go. Good luck to you and the club in the future.
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Post by eckersley43 on Mar 1, 2012 19:42:37 GMT 10
wako..lmao at your "clique conspiracy" comments..but then I realised I didn't get an invite to your meeting..what sort of a clique are you running?
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Post by farnt on Mar 2, 2012 14:41:47 GMT 10
Mmmm samossa...
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Post by Goblin on Mar 2, 2012 15:35:55 GMT 10
Time to Move On
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