bushman
Junior Member
Between the lines, play it hard.
Posts: 90
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Post by bushman on Dec 22, 2011 10:37:11 GMT 10
Eagle,
Yeah Ok i see your point, I say I dont condone them, then is the same sentence let them go on. I feel that a pitch inside is enough to get a message across 9 times out of 10.
1 thing I did make a point of, is it never acceptable to risk serious injury by pitching at the head / shoulders.
More often that not, it is the character of the batter who was hit to how he reacts. Some react with anger, others just take their base.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2011 10:51:12 GMT 10
As stated earlier, some people need to learn how to play this game the right way (partic in the lower grades) and inflicting (or trying to inflict) intentional injury on them to make them learn is not necessarily the best way to do this of course AND this is where a lot of responsibility needs to go on the Coaches and Managers and Clubs of all respective teams as they know who the dic$heads are in their team and these guys should be 'counselled' or weeded out of the game whereever possible in my view.
There is an interesting parallel to the game I played a lot years ago Nathan, namely cricket (partic back when helmets and much of the protective gear was not yet invented/used) when short pitched bowling into the rib cage was/is still absolutely part of the game (and importantly so) ?
Yep it is maybe the same as pitching 'inside' to back the hitter off the plate but usually fast bowlers are looking to hit the guy (often in the upper body).
How more cricketers back then on matting etc didnt get seriously injured Ill never know.
And I wont even start on the old 'bean balls' in cricket (another usual gutless act by a bowler that wasnt good enough to get the guy 'out' in the proper way) !
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 22, 2011 12:30:02 GMT 10
DB, glad to hear others agree that intentionally harming oppostion players is something we shouldn't do.
Bushman/Authentic, happy we can reach some common ground.
Interestingly, the language we use has a part to play... When the coach/teammate says, "I want you to 'pop' / 'send a message to' / 'teach a lesson to' the next guy," it sounds relatively harmless.
What if this question was asked of our pitchers... "I want you to intentionally cause a physical injury to the next guy, risking severe injury that could have a significant long-term impact on his, and his family's life." I can't think of a single player in our league that would comply to that request.
Even the concept of pitching inside worries me... again, I think we're 'writing cheques our pitchers can't cash'... I don't think the pitchers at the level are good enough to 'buzz the tower' without significantly increasing the chance of injuring someone... much respect to the pitchers in our league, but 'pinpoint control' isn't common and when we're talking about throwing baseballs around people's heads, I expect pinpoint control!
I have a lot of respect for the coaches in Division One (I only mention because this is where I am also managing and have direct contact with these blokes)... they're all quality guys who I trust are teaching their guys to not only be good ballplayers, but good 'baseball citizens'.
If one of their guys steps outside the boundary of 'acceptable sportsmanship', I would trust his coach to teach him what is acceptable conduct. If the behaviour continues over a period that I establish it is a pattern, I trust I can talk to any coach in this league and raise my concern and have it given proper consideration. The respect among the coaches in Div One is excellent and I sense we're all trying to achieve the same long-term goals.
For mine, this is a much more postive and effective means of teaching players what is and isn't acceptable on our baseball fields.
Word limit foul... sorry Barb05
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soap
Junior Member
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Post by soap on Dec 22, 2011 12:32:38 GMT 10
Here you assume that the pitcher was intentionally throwing at the hitter. Nothing here is stating that it was intentional. So off your high horse and learn about context, instead of going of on tangents that have nothing to do with the situation. Soap, I assume your post was in reference to the incident between the Mugrave and Port Melbourne players... it wasn't clear, but I'll proceed as though it was and you can correct me otherwise. I've made no assumptions the pitcher in this instance intentionally hit the batter. I disagreeumption is the batter thought it was intentional. I guess I could be wrong in this assumption, but, to date, no one has presented any other reason why the batter took exception. There was some discussion about something happening at first base, so perhaps this has a greater influence on what happened, but from the posts this isn't clear. I hadn't felt my posts were directly related to this incident, or any other. I simply used this incident as a starting point to follow a train of thought that's bothered me for some time... god forbid anyone ever use the forum to go of on tangents not directly related to a situation... please KC if anyone does that again, shut this beast down! I've contended that so long as it is widely accepted that pitchers will intentionally throw at batters, it is little surprise that batters will assume they've been hit intentionally. Soap, feel free to counter my contention or even agree with me... I've tried to find some compelling evidence to support my contention, where you've simply tried to shut down debate by accusing me of some sort of equestrian acrobatics that, according to you, aren't accepted on the forum. Try harder. Perhaps creating your own thread about this topic or hell even putting a disclaimer stating you are not referring to said topic would have been the ideal course? Instead of derailing this thread that was about the week 12 games. If we all started talking about semi related content in 1 thread, then it would turn into a s**t storm of a thread and no one would be able to follow it anywhere. You have already well and truly derailed this thread. Oh and on that... I'd prefer a fastball in the ribs as compared to a baseball bat swung in to the ribs. Comparing an intentional HPB and someone swinging a bat at your head/arm is like comparing apples and oranges. BTW Mulgrave 3rds def Port. Melb. 12-2
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 22, 2011 13:02:13 GMT 10
Soap, I apologise for my lack of forum manners... since I had never seen a disclaimer used for someone posting on related topics, I was not familiar with the protocol.
Also, the very first post of the thread (following KC opening it) related to an incident where a player allegedly confronted a pitcher with the bat after a HPB. Over the course of almost three days many others commented on the topic, both specifically and generally, before I entered the discussion. I didn't realise my participation would singlehandedly 'well and truly derail the thread'.
For future reference, can you please direct me to the disclaimer button, or perhaps post an example of said disclaimer so such unfortunate and embarrasing mistakes can be avoided?
In the meantime, KC, could you please move this discussion to another thread (if I can't even complete a simple task like posting a disclaimer to my discussion, I don't trust myself to move an entire thread) so Soap and his friends can get back to posting their scores?
PS Soap... did you know the bow and arrow were invented because it was easier to kill foes from a distance than with a sword. With the sword, the opponent could get close enough to fight back. With the bow, most times the opponent wouldn't even know it was coming. Effective, yes, but at the time I'm sure derided as ____ (whatever ye olde term is for p***weak).
I'd rather take my chances with the guy three feet away than the guy potting me from a distance.
PPS KC... can you please move that last comment to the specific historical armed conflict thread so as to avoid any further derailments?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2011 16:29:14 GMT 10
The fact that this issue has dominated Week 12 comments suggests to me that it is one of some importance to many people. It's a great discussion, a challenging discussion that goes to the very heart of the way in which we play the game, could play the game and should play the game at amateur level. Lay on, Macduff.....
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Post by Chardy on Dec 22, 2011 16:44:41 GMT 10
I don't think plunking a hitter now and then for various reasons is a bad thing - just as long as they aren't throwing at their head.
I will put my hand up and say that I have "popped" a hitter or two in my time for simply just being too comfortable in the box (read, hitting too well). I can also say that I never once popped a following hitter after someone hit a jack off me - pimp or no pimp. I actually tip my hat to hitters who crush towering homers and them pimp them - well deserved.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2011 19:40:34 GMT 10
I know I run the risk of out-wording aueagle30, but what the heck...... Intentionally throwing at a hitter at Major League level happens very occasionally – and then it will usually only be because of some perceived disrespect shown towards the opposition. Baseball gets some bad press from the mainstream media from isolated incidents and bench-clearing episodes that are pretty much all bravado and flying the flag for your team. Compared with other high-profile sports, the incidence of violence and player confrontation in baseball is minimal at the highest levels. How often do we see MLB players actually get hurt through physical clashes with their opponents? Rarely. The reason? Because players understand that baseball is their livelihood – and their life. Along with all the others making big money and enjoying great prestige at the top level. It would simply be bad form to seek to take any action that might jeopardise a fellow player’s career, his well-being or even his life. If you do wrong by someone it will come back to bite you for sure. With that in mind, why would we - or should we - think it is OK in amateur baseball to seek to hurt or maim someone in the course of competition? A competition that we pay to be a part of and that is already a pretty fragile commodity in the Australian sporting community. There are occasions when a pitcher might want to claim the inside of the plate or make a statement to a guy who has been looking in at signals, but even then there are arguably better ways to do it. For instance, by striking the bloke out and giving him a gobful of well-chosen words. That will deliver far more lasting satisfaction and a potential edge for future encounters. This whole idea of popping someone for a perceived wrongdoing is fraught with real danger at lower levels in the sport, where hitters are less accomplished, less athletic and less able to take evasive action. That apart from the fact that the pitchers don’t generally have the control in any case. Throwing at a person’s torso, for instance, can quite easily translate into hitting someone in the head (or the big toe - or missing altogether and cleaning up the scorer). Our version of the sport has thankfully come a fair way in recent decades. I’d suggest that plenty or most old-timers were less concerned (if they were concerned at all) about getting pinged in the batting box than being ambushed in the field – by wayward metal cleats on a close play, by an over-zealous tag, by players refusing to slide or by a range of other opportunistic strategies such as a runner stepping on a first sacker’s Achilles when he is using the extreme inside of the base when taking an infield throw. Such behaviours are not accepted these days. And neither should they be. Aussie baseball people in earlier eras were taught – or urged - to play the game hard. Or at least be seen to be playing it hard. But not always fair, I hasten to add. We have thankfully come some way since then. Revel in the contest, compete to your ability, strive to get better while respecting your opposition is the underlying message that we should surely be delivering to our young people. Finally, a brief anecdote to put all of this in perspective. Going back over twenty years, I was playing in a Second Semi-Final at a rebuilding club coached by a high-profile baseball person. An opposition player – a not very popular human being at that point playing in the old ABL – had done a little jig and said a few words after smacking a home run off our nineteen year-old starting pitcher (a big, easy-going kid who threw the ball pretty hard). Running in from the outfield, our coach instructed the pitcher to plug the next hitter. Just do it, he said. The kid turned to me (as an old bloke playing first base) and asked what he should do. I said something like, “Whatever is in your heart, Brad". While I was secretly and perversely hoping for blood, he threw a fastball down the pipe and got smacked for a double. He threw the rest of the game, which we lost by a couple. We came back with a win in the Preliminary and reversed the Second Semi-Final loss to pinch the pennant in a boilover (with the coach and the young pitcher both playing outstanding games). Baseball karma. You don’t need to physically hurt anyone. Just beat ‘em when it matters most!
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 22, 2011 19:43:55 GMT 10
Chardy, I'd rank you in the top 10 pitchers in Div 1 over the past 10 years I've been managing... but even you were prone to miss a spot by 12 or so inches... approximately the distance from the middle of my ribs to my eyes.
The ideal of policing each other by 'popping guys', or pitching hard in, are a part of a professional environment... an environment where guys spend every day committed to learning and understanding the game... where skills are much more developed and better executed.
Do we really want it playing out on a Sunday afternoon in Melbourne where Joe Blow decides it's his time to enforce some code neither bludger properly understands, other than 'it's just bush, alright'? Chardy, you're no bludger, but if guys like you say it's okay, or even worse, you encourage it, Joe Blows will follow and other Blow Joes will react badly.
And still, I am hoping someone can answer me why we've accepted such a double standard? I'm sure a lot of people read Chardy's comment and thought, 'Fair enough!"
What if I posted this...
Plunking a pitcher every now and then isn't a bad thing... so long as you don't throw at their head.
I'll put my hand up and say I've popped a few pitchers in my time, simply for being to effective on the mound. If their really travelling well, you know, striking out a few too many of my buddies, well I'll wait until just as their about to release the ball and I'll launch my bat from the on-deck circle right at the pitcher on the mound.
I'm aiming for his ribs of course... it'd be madness to intentionally throw it at his head... I mean, it could really damage him. But the ribs are okay.
Usually sends the right message to other pitchers in the bull pen not to get to comfortable on the mound, you know?
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Post by oldracer on Dec 22, 2011 19:52:25 GMT 10
this is a great topic, speaking of pitchers being able to show the appropriate angst to an opposing hitter/team. I watched our best pro pitchers in the country last night in the All Star game and barring a few stray pitches that actually went where the catcher called, not one of the pitchers had the command to be able to select the ribs or head on call, bearing in mind that the plate is 17" wide, about the same as ribs to head and very few could throw in or out as called by the catcher. Having said that, I do think a pitcher should learn and be able to throw inside as called, our game determines that be a requirement.
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 22, 2011 19:54:55 GMT 10
KC, while I admire your bravado in simulataneously flouting Barb05's 100 word limit and Soap's disclaimer policy, what's really tickled me is your measure and reason.
Agree completely and would love to share an anecdote from my college days that resulted in an opponent almost losing his eye and an outstanding pitcher who went on to pro ball, but was never as confident going inside again because someone stole 12 runs up and the code had to be enforced by kids that, in spite of their man-size bodies and talents, couldn't have understood the code or the consequences of enforcing it, but we have word limits to try and follow.
Is "man-size" one word? I say yes... 110... getting better!
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 22, 2011 20:00:12 GMT 10
Oldracer, we miss ya down in G-Town mate... hope you and the family have a great Christmas.
Please let me be really clear, I'm not for a second trying to suggest pitchers shouldn't pitch inside. It's a key to pitching effectively. And yes, if pitchers pitch inside, their is a chance hitters will get hit.
Every hitter in the game accepts there is a pretty good chance he's going to get hit with a fastball, and therefore accepts the responsibility of whatever consequences may arise out of being hit.
Where I take exception is when a pitcher decides it's time to intentionally throw at the batter. I don't think many hitters at our level have signed up for pitchers to throw at them intentionally and with malice.
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Post by Chardy on Dec 22, 2011 20:30:08 GMT 10
Mr Eagle.... Tough to argue with you as you do make a good point!! Your point about throwing bats kind of opens up a whole new dimension.
Can I tell you about the pitcher who was pitching against the Gold Coast Cougars years ago in the ABL and popped the hitter an then proceeded to cause an all in brawl when he charged the hitter at home plate?? Hilarious to watch.
But I guess, I should come out and say "men and boys, you can't always hit your spots so in the sake of safety, please don't throw pitches through the box".
Having said that..... Please, please, please - throw more pitches over the inside part of the plate and own it - it is the key to success. Not enough pitchers own the inside part of the plate. You can succeed with two pitches if you throw inside. Sometimes you may miss inside....
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Post by p8 on Dec 22, 2011 20:37:10 GMT 10
aueagle30 and kc I agree totally with your comments.
bushman regarding your discussion of the fake tag in a game you umpired. Had you ejected the player who did this then he wouldn't have been in the game where he got intentionally thrown at. It would have sent the best and safest message that this practice is not on.
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bushman
Junior Member
Between the lines, play it hard.
Posts: 90
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Post by bushman on Dec 24, 2011 22:40:29 GMT 10
aueagle30 and kc I agree totally with your comments. bushman regarding your discussion of the fake tag in a game you umpired. Had you ejected the player who did this then he wouldn't have been in the game where he got intentionally thrown at. It would have sent the best and safest message that this practice is not on. P8, yes that would have been the best course of action. Although I must admit I did not see the play at the time. As a runner was coming home my attention was there and my line umpire had 3rd base. Only between the digs did he tell me what happened, by then too late to toss. Also guys, just a bit of clarification - pitching inside and intentional HBP's are 2 extremly different things. Pitchers must pitch inside, I do it myself. It is done to try to back the hitter off the plate, not trying to hit them. Then by going inside well you can pen up the outside part of the plate for both breakers and fastballs. Otherwise you become simple cannon fodder for good hitters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2011 7:49:17 GMT 10
Hey Bushman, merry chrissy mate, Id just say that at all but the highest levels of ball most hitters dont usually 'back off the plate' when a ball is thrown inside BUT it certainly is where you want to pitch to get in on the handle or get the ball pulled foul down the left field line, at least that what us guys that throw mid 70's try to do.
Yep..... thats 'K's per hour' too BTW :-)
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Post by p26 on Dec 25, 2011 9:08:30 GMT 10
Ever seen Johnson v Kruk in that all star game many years ago. That is a hitter that backed off the plate haha.
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Post by philby on Jan 23, 2012 10:40:09 GMT 10
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Post by The Puma on Jan 23, 2012 12:22:27 GMT 10
Even more interesting that the bloke from Preston went up on pretty much the same charges as the Mulgrave bloke the week before and only got 3.
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