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Post by larry42 on Dec 20, 2011 22:54:31 GMT 10
Port player got 6 weeks at the tribunal for fighting.
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Post by Chardy on Dec 21, 2011 9:35:05 GMT 10
One of the most popular replays on ESPN is the Nolan Ryan / Robin Ventura fight - I don't know a single male baseballer that doesn't love that clip. Robin Ventura? You have never seen this Chilli?? |
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Post by Chardy on Dec 21, 2011 9:37:59 GMT 10
8 weeks for verbal?? Is that a joke? Plead guilty to saying a few chioce words to the ump, first time up in 30 years and gets 8 weeks. The same night a willy guy got 2 for striking. Go figure. PS - new information that has come to hand sounds like he deserved the 8 weeks!! Nearly enough time to learn some manners and respect by the sounds of things. |
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Post by Chilli Wil on Dec 21, 2011 10:35:27 GMT 10
You have never seen this Chilli?? I meant, perhaps Robin Ventura would not enjoy watching the clip of himself being beaten up, as you stated you wouldn't know of a single male baseballer that doesn't love that clip. I'd say he isn't too fond of it! I had indeed seen it and do I find it funny to a certain degree, but more in a philosophical sense. Although most men all get that primordial rush when we see two people smashing each other in the face with their fists, at the end of the day most sane people can look back at it for what violence really is, and really see where they went wrong. |
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Post by The Joker on Dec 21, 2011 10:53:13 GMT 10
Although most men all get that primordial rush when we see two people smashing each other in the face with their fists, at the end of the day most sane people can look back at it for what violence really is, and really see where they went wrong. Says the man with the MMA clip in his signature ;D |
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Post by farnt on Dec 21, 2011 11:20:12 GMT 10
Good point TJ!
I'm still trying to work out why Ventura charged the mound to wrap his arms around Nolan in an attempt to bear hug him to death...WTF! Nolan must have been thinking 'sure, grab me around the waist so my arms are free to pound your bregma'!
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Post by Chilli Wil on Dec 21, 2011 12:55:37 GMT 10
Says the man with the MMA clip in his signature ;D Again, a little more philosophical than 2 people just hitting each other. When people argue, if they keep an open mind and listen to what the other person is saying, you can actually get a thought provoking and meaningful conversation going. Even if at the end you have to "agree to disagree", hopefully everyone involved is better off for it. Or, as a few posters in this thread might now be feeling, when you argue and it divulges into name calling and petty squabbles, you are effectively "boxing with your words', and my clip is meant to highlight when people end up like that, nobody wins. Nothing wrong with organised violence. I'm pretty sure it can be avoided at the level most of us play, as I'm sure we all have jobs / school to get on with on the Monday after a game. Broken bones and bruises are all well and good for people paid 50k for 15 mins, and 3 months between bouts, but I think the rest of us would be better served keeping our hands to ourselves! |
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 21, 2011 13:17:13 GMT 10
every1 has been popped by a baseball. suck it up and take your base. do you think the pitcher was thinking, hey this hitter has been in the 4ths for the last 5 years, he looks dangerous, i think ill pop him in the second dig to set up a double play. if you run at a pitcher with a bat in your hand, you desrve what ever you get. if your upset about getting hit by a baseball, go play marbels. I find it an odd double standard that we deem it acceptable to stand 60 feet away and fire a baseball 80-90 miles an hour at other players, even to the extent of deeming it just part of the game... It was disappointing though that what was a normal baseball incident (that is a HPB... ... yet the idea of standing three feet away from someone and hitting them with a bat is considered weak and a higher degree of unsportsmanlike behaviour??? Why is trying to hit someone with a bat any more unsavoury than trying to hit them with a pitch??? If the acceptable response to being hit by a pitch is either taking your base or putting down the bat and hitting with your fists, by extension shouldn't the pitcher either not hit the batter in the first place or just walk up and punch the hitter??? |
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 21, 2011 13:38:10 GMT 10
Ok People, Since there is alot of talk about it lets get it down so everyone can know the un-written rules of baseball. 2) if you are going to bean someone hit them in the hip, never throw at anyones head. Never been a big fan of fake tags. Do it to me and you'll earn yourself some "special attention". I had a guy do this to me with Tin a while back in the DBA. It was in the 8th and he hit it to straight away centre and didn't leave his batters box till it hit the hill!! Yay for him!! About 3-4 seasons later I buzzed one behind him because this was my first op for so long due to this poor performance. He still to this day has no idea why I did this and thinks I'm a goose because of it!! Maybe next time this situation occurs, the pitcher could just ping the batter straight up and save throwing another 3 or 4 to advance them to first.  After you said sorry, you don't say anything else. You then buy the pitcher a beer/coke after the game, and tell the fielder no hard feelings. Remember, he was losing by ten runs, obviously having a bad day as a team. Wait til after the game when hopefully everyone has settled down. If after all that he is still unhappy, file it away in the memory bank for next time you see them Eitherb slide or get off the line while running to second on a double play ball!! Seems there are some people who think its better to try and distract the fielder turning the double play! Personally i dont think its worth getting your teeth smashed in! How about plugging a left fielder after he attempted a 7 - 3 in the previous inning ? probably wouldnt have tried it if it wasnt one of the womens players who hit it to him in the first place The tricky bit is that some in the lower grades inadvertently stay vertical in line with the bag and get drilled (intentionally or not) sometimes. Ump did nothing but when coach Stu asked and ump last year to warn the runner he might get drilled after the second time he ran standing up to 2nd base in a double play... If, as is often claimed, the members of this forum are a broad cross-section of the wider baseball community and the views expressed here are an indication of the views of the wider community, is it any wonder players feel the need to respond when hit by thrown baseball, pitch or otherwise??? This reference list was put together from about five minutes of research... I'm sure more extensive research would find more instances of forum members condoning intentionally throwing baseballs at other players. Intentionally hitting batters, and other instances of throwing baseballs in the direction of other players, is a part of baseball, but not at any level most of us are currently playing at. Perhaps we would all be better served talking more about how our pitchers can be more effective in getting batters out and our fielders can learn to use their feet to avoid sliding runner, rather than concepts that are beyond most of our baseball experience and education. Perhaps these types of incidences like on the weekend could be avoided altogether. |
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Post by strawberry on Dec 21, 2011 13:39:56 GMT 10
Port player got 6 weeks at the tribunal for fighting. I think the Mulgrave player may also have got 6 weeks after pleading guilty & not even fronting the tribunal. |
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Post by knuckleball on Dec 21, 2011 13:46:37 GMT 10
Mulgrave players first game for the year, he was only filling in as a once off because of so many injuries. They could have given him 6 months and I don't think it would have bothered him.
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Post by Chilli Wil on Dec 21, 2011 13:53:54 GMT 10
...rather than concepts that are beyond most of our baseball experience and education. I think what leads to fights and bench clearing has very little to do with baseball, but rather how people behave in general. The natural response is to react, right or wrong as that may be. The average person, if they feel wronged in some way, will often react. Better education across baseball would lead to less of this, no doubt. People do indeed need to know when someone is throwing at someone intentionally and when it is just someone being wild. "People" includes umpires who should step in and take charge, but also coaches and other players to look after your teammates. |
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 21, 2011 13:55:32 GMT 10
There is no place in any sport for physical fighting (unless it's wrestling or boxing, or something like that). Talk some trash, that's not a problem. But a hitter charging the mound is a joke. And then trying to be tough and punching on, pathetic. Don't see that crap in women's baseball boys  So, just to be clear, charging the mound after being hit by a pitch is pathetic... fighting and punching on has no place on the baseball field... The intentional passes to both hitters was 1. to set up the force play, and 2. as a sign of respect (define it how you like) that the onus was going to be put on the next hitter to win the game. She did, caps were tipped. Hitters can do what they like in that situation, i'm merely stating IMO that a hitter take their 4 balls and run up to 1st. Couldn't give a toss if others believe that should/shouldn't happen. Maybe next time this situation occurs, the pitcher could just ping the batter straight up and save throwing another 3 or 4 to advance them to first. It's quite likely i would have done that if i was pitching pakkyp ... but intentionally throwing at the hitter is okay??? Is it more pathetic to respond to a pitcher intentionally throwing a baseball at you, or to throw the baseball in the first instance? And, while rricho may not have executed his thought with full clarity, I agree with his sentiments. The events over the past couple of weeks have highlighted some strong divisions that still exist between Men's and Women's baseball... I thought it was unfortunate to see men on this forum openly express their disdain for the women's baseball... I appreciate they were being honest, but it shows there is still a long way to go. Wouldn't have thought now was the time to be shining smiles on those divisions or to risk further entrenching them. |
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soap
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Post by soap on Dec 21, 2011 14:04:22 GMT 10
Here you assume that the pitcher was intentionally throwing at the hitter. Nothing here is stating that it was intentional. So off your high horse and learn about context, instead of going of on tangents that have nothing to do with the situation.
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 21, 2011 14:11:53 GMT 10
I think what leads to fights and bench clearing has very little to do with baseball, but rather how people behave in general. The natural response is to react, right or wrong as that may be. The average person, if they feel wronged in some way, will often react. CW, you say react like there is only one example of 'reacting'... are we not as capable of reacting positively as we negatively??? Why, if a hitter hits a home run and stands in the box, is our reaction to hit someone with the baseball? Why is not to strike the next guy out? Yes, we all react... but it's how we react that is the measure of the man. Better education across baseball would lead to less of this, no doubt. People do indeed need to know when someone is throwing at someone intentionally and when it is just someone being wild. "People" includes umpires who should step in and take charge, but also coaches and other players to look after your teammates. Rather than trying to educate people on how to better read someone's unspoken intentions, why can't we stop accepting it as okay to throw at batters? If the general consensus was there was just no place for it, it would be unlikely to ever be intentional... therefore, we'd never have to worry if we were hit intentionally, or just by a wild pitch. If it was unacceptable to throw at the opposition, and it were to happen, I imagine teammates would react toward their pitcher to let him know it was unacceptable, similar to a fake tag situation. This would stop the hitter from ever having to react, removing the possibility of conflict in this situation. At amateur level, it's not part of the game... at a level where your career and your livelihood are at stake day in, day out, I'll accept it's part of the game... but not here. The education I'm talking about isn't about umpires, but people like you that condone the concept of throwing at batters as a normal part of baseball. And this from someone who has just posted several thoughts on the need to avoid conflict through reason and measure... yet you still think it's okay to throw a 80+ mph baseball at someone?  |
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 21, 2011 14:26:31 GMT 10
Here you assume that the pitcher was intentionally throwing at the hitter. Nothing here is stating that it was intentional. So off your high horse and learn about context, instead of going of on tangents that have nothing to do with the situation. Soap, I assume your post was in reference to the incident between the Mugrave and Port Melbourne players... it wasn't clear, but I'll proceed as though it was and you can correct me otherwise. I've made no assumptions the pitcher in this instance intentionally hit the batter. I disagreeumption is the batter thought it was intentional. I guess I could be wrong in this assumption, but, to date, no one has presented any other reason why the batter took exception. There was some discussion about something happening at first base, so perhaps this has a greater influence on what happened, but from the posts this isn't clear. I hadn't felt my posts were directly related to this incident, or any other. I simply used this incident as a starting point to follow a train of thought that's bothered me for some time... god forbid anyone ever use the forum to go of on tangents not directly related to a situation... please KC if anyone does that again, shut this beast down! I've contended that so long as it is widely accepted that pitchers will intentionally throw at batters, it is little surprise that batters will assume they've been hit intentionally. Soap, feel free to counter my contention or even agree with me... I've tried to find some compelling evidence to support my contention, where you've simply tried to shut down debate by accusing me of some sort of equestrian acrobatics that, according to you, aren't accepted on the forum. Try harder. |
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Post by Chilli Wil on Dec 21, 2011 14:28:47 GMT 10
We are most certainly capable of reacting in a positive way. One of the moments that I still use as an example on how to go about the game came from Al Sutherland one day ("freak" on these boards). One of our blokes hit a home run, and he wasn't quite as skinny as me (read: fat) and took his time around the bases. Their pitcher popped off, and Al was up to bat next. We in the dugout were also being verbal, and Al let us know to shut up. First pitch he wore in the shoulder. Their pitcher "reacted" by throwing at Al. Al reacted positively by putting his head down and walking up to first. Being the smart ball player he is, I'm sure he knew it was coming, braced for it, and took his base.
I'm not going to argue what the other pitcher did was right, wrong or whatever. Everyone has to look at how they conduct themselves and their own actions, that's my view on the world. We can make it as unacceptable as we want, people will still do things on the field that are "wrong". If you know when they are going to happen, you can better prepare yourself, that's what I meant by education. Also, if you know someone is just wild, you probably don't think they meant it, and you probably wont go try to punch them, not matter how ill-advised it is.
I don't know when I said it was OK to throw at people? I think it is very important to know when someone is planning to throw AT YOU. I think it is important to know if someone has a reputation for being dirty so you can watch them more closely. I think it is important to know if someone has a short fuse so you can tell your mate "hey, that bloke has been wild all day, don't go throwing at people".
Being educated about those things (and a few more) can avoid almost every confrontation I think we might see on the suburban baseball field. Just because I understand the nature of people doesn't mean I think it is right or wrong, I just understand it.
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 21, 2011 14:55:53 GMT 10
We are most certainly capable of reacting in a positive way. One of the moments that I still use as an example on how to go about the game came from Al Sutherland one day ("freak" on these boards). One of our blokes hit a home run, and he wasn't quite as skinny as me (read: fat) and took his time around the bases. Their pitcher popped off, and Al was up to bat next. We in the dugout were also being verbal, and Al let us know to shut up. First pitch he wore in the shoulder. Their pitcher "reacted" by throwing at Al. Al reacted positively by putting his head down and walking up to first. Being the smart ball player he is, I'm sure he knew it was coming, braced for it, and took his base. CW, in your example about Mr. Sutherland, would the response had been so subdued if he'd been hit in the face? What if it hit him in the eye and he lost his vision? What if it hit him the heart and caused a heart attack? All because, as you put it, some fat guy didn't run the bases fast enough. The punishment just doesn't seem to fit the crime in most cases. "Oh man, poor Al is going to blind for the rest of his life." "Yeah, well that fat guy should learn to run faster... being fat's no excuse!" Yes, the hypothetical consequences I listed would be unintended, but let's look at the quality of pitchers at this level and ask are they good enough to reduce the risk of these unintended consequences? Good pitchers in Div One would throw around 60-65% strikes... as you down grades, I'd say that accuracy decreases... should we condone throwing at a batter in amateur baseball where the unintended consequences could be so damaging, when our pitchers are less than a 75% chance of hitting their target? Your right that you didn't say you condoned throwing at batters, I inferred that from your position we should educate umpires on what is intentional and what isn't... I guess I feel like if we all agree it's not okay, it'll stop and the problem is solved. |
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Post by Chilli Wil on Dec 21, 2011 15:22:55 GMT 10
If it had hit him worse, there might have been a different outcome. Although it wouldn't have been nice at all, those are some of the risks we take when we step on the field. It is fact that a small, hard object is being directed towards a space adjacent to us a dozen times a game. Over the course of 2 hours or 9 innings, there is a chance one of those will hit us.
Getting thrown at intentionally shouldn't be part of the amateur game, but there are going to be people who go out and do it, for whatever reason. By educating people about what to do when it happens, or even have a good idea of when it might happen, you can avoid one of the more unsavory aspects about this game turning into an all out brawl.
Just agreeing something isn't all right wont stop it. If the bloke on the hill is someone senior around the club, I doubt most players would tell him to pull his head in, or that it isn't OK. It is pretty tough to tell your mate that he is being a dickhead, more-so when they are in the "moment". If you can see it happening ahead of time, you might be able to affect a change.
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Post by cooler on Dec 21, 2011 15:32:10 GMT 10
here's a tangent to head off to:
When did "popping off" the next batter after a home run start ?? What do you think the reason for it is ??
Is it embarrasment by the pitcher being taken for "yard" or is it just engrained and considered the thing to do ??
I reckon this might be a subject for our own "Legend" Chardy to jump onto !
Along the same vane, has anybody heard about K.R.s outcome at the P.C. last night ?
BEAR IN MIND THAT THE BATTER IN THAT INSTANCE WAS NOT ACTUALLY HIT !!!
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 21, 2011 16:08:01 GMT 10
here's a tangent to head off to: When did "popping off" the next batter after a home run start ?? What do you think the reason for it is ?? Is it embarrasment by the pitcher being taken for "yard" or is it just engrained and considered the thing to do ?? I reckon this might be a subject for our own "Legend" Chardy to jump onto ! Along the same vane, has anybody heard about K.R.s outcome at the P.C. last night ? BEAR IN MIND THAT THE BATTER IN THAT INSTANCE WAS NOT ACTUALLY HIT !!! Cooler, great question... I've often pondered the origins of events we now just accept as normal... who was the first person to slap his hands together at a rapid rate as sign of enjoying another's good fortune, and who were those around him that thought, "Boy, I just cannot think of a better way to express my excitement... I'm going to slap my hands together really fast, as well!... or, conversely, who decided in the course of witnessing something they didn't like, that a long, drawn out, booing noise would be the most appropriate way to express that? Very interesting questions indeed. I would hazard a guess the first time a hitter stood in the box admiring his home run came well after the invention of the camera! |
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 21, 2011 16:18:13 GMT 10
If it had hit him worse, there might have been a different outcome. Although it wouldn't have been nice at all, those are some of the risks we take when we step on the field. It is fact that a small, hard object is being directed towards a space adjacent to us a dozen times a game. Over the course of 2 hours or 9 innings, there is a chance one of those will hit us. Getting thrown at intentionally shouldn't be part of the amateur game, but there are going to be people who go out and do it, for whatever reason. By educating people about what to do when it happens, or even have a good idea of when it might happen, you can avoid one of the more unsavory aspects about this game turning into an all out brawl. Just agreeing something isn't all right wont stop it. If the bloke on the hill is someone senior around the club, I doubt most players would tell him to pull his head in, or that it isn't OK. It is pretty tough to tell your mate that he is being a d ickhead, more-so when they are in the "moment". If you can see it happening ahead of time, you might be able to affect a change. CW, follow me here... Who faked a tag? I would stand by and see a team mate cop one (but only one) on the chin for laying a fake tag. I've stood by and let a team mate cop one from another team mate for layinbg a fake tag. It saves a lot of agro from the opposition :-) The OGH 3B in the 3rds on the weekend. As stated in the other thread, he was new to the game, and didn't know better. He was informed (both politely and otherwise) that it isn't on, and has hopefully learned from his transgression.  ... it seems we can find consensus on an issue like fake tags (I would say the view expressed in the three posts is generally accepted by the wider community) because they're dangerous and considered poor sportsmanship. In the examples above, teammates are prepared to 'shun' or educate their each other on what's considered appropriate or inappropriate behaviour. As a result, in my 30 years of baseball I can only think of witnessing one fake tag. Why don't you see the same outcome possible if the mindset toward intentionally throwing at batters changed? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2011 17:42:40 GMT 10
Gee I've missed your posts Nathan (I think........ albeit it does take me away from my work a little too long whilst I read them all :-))
This is usually one of the more contentious of issues raised herein of course, usually the bloke that retaliates (i.e throws at the next hitter) has either been 'shown up' (read 'beaten') and cant hack it (see 'weak as pi$$) or did something that was stupid and potentially causes uneccesary injury (see 'fake tags' etc) when some 'addressing' of the matter may well be warranted TO THAT PERSON (not someone else).
The form of that addressing (in my view) needs to be seen in the context of whether he/she should have known better (like new players to the game sometimes have no clue) and aught not be violent and certainly not criminal in nature but it probably needs to send a very clear message to the idiot or ignorant player !
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2011 17:44:47 GMT 10
PS: The aforementioned 'Al' can throw reasonably hard still these days :-) but his fastball that drifts 'inside' comes with a "Look out !" shout in his follow through !
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Post by barb05 on Dec 22, 2011 7:28:16 GMT 10
Nate, please either
- stop quoting people
- type all your responses in point form
- keep your posts below 100 words
- all of the above
Have I thrown at hitters? Yes. But only when the need arises.
And Yes I said "when the need arises" and I accept it as part if the game. If you can not, then so be it but don't get upset if the people you're playing against think it's part of the game. But that does depend on the level I'm playing (I've only thrown at someone in 1sts), and there is never an intention to hurt anyone. If some seems to have been "popped" for no reason then try looking at the pitcher, he'll probably be staring at the guy who earned it for his team mate.
Chardy, might need to change your name back to Chinmusic.
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bushman
Junior Member
Between the lines, play it hard.
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Post by bushman on Dec 22, 2011 8:56:58 GMT 10
If I may, I'd like to out my 2 cents in.
In terms of a fake tag, thats flat out not on. You dont see that crap in MLB, Div 1, 2, 6 or under 12's as you shouldn't. You try to do that, the opposition will take exception.
I was umpiring a couple of years ago, and a guy tried a fake tag at 3rd to try to stop a runner scoring. Next dig he was 3rd up, with 2 out the first pitch was right into his lower ribs, he turns and whinges that it was intentional - i told him to shut up and take his base, he keeps whinging until his first base coach tells him why he got drilled.
I knew the pitch was intentional, but it was in the ribs to get a point across, not at his head to cause serious injury, so I let it go.
Had it been at his head, I would have had to react differently.
As for other intentional HBP's, its difficult to have a hard and fast 'unwritten rule' as Im sure many would agree.
One thing I will stand by, NEVER should a pitch be throw anywhere near someone's head, including shoulders. If you are going to plunk someone, make it strike zone height.
I don't condone intentional HBP's, unless it is to get a point across and often a pitch well inside is enough to do that.
I dont understand hitting the next batter after 1 guy has hit a bomb and slow trotted around the bases, I would have thought you would wait until that guy is up again.
Merry Christmas all!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2011 9:06:47 GMT 10
Yep I agree Bushman - with pretty much everthing youve said !
PS: Without taking away from the validity of your position mate, if I had the time Id search out that quote someone offered up a while ago to do with 'AuEagle30' and how he must have been at nightclubs back in the day (or something like that as I recall). Still cracks me up to this day ;D
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 22, 2011 9:28:59 GMT 10
Nate, please either - stop quoting people Okay |
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Post by aueagle30 on Dec 22, 2011 9:54:54 GMT 10
Authentic/Barb05, thanks for taking the time to read my posts... sorry it takes up so much of your time, but I usually only engage on this forum on topics I see as greatly important. For this reason, I think it's important to present clear evidence and solid reason to support my position, rather than the rhetoric that is more commonly used. I'll keep trying to be more concise, but I'd rather present clear reason than keep it short for short's sake. Bushman, you do condone intentional HPB... the second part of the sentence where you start by saying you don't condone intentional HPB clearly states you do condone them... whatever your reason is, you clearly condone one player intentionally risking the serious injury of another player. And rather than wait until a mistake is made and a batter is hit in the head, why not react differently now? Don't condone it, don't encourage it and maybe it would never happen. Bushman/Barb05/Authentic, I disagree that the level we're competing in (from BV Division One on down) is a level where we should condone any intentional injury of another player, even to 'send a message' or when 'the need arises' (strange we have a culture where the need to intentional injure another player arises??) We're at a development level (kids to college/proball, players to ABL, and our own internal development)... people make mistakes and, at this level, they should be educated in manner that doesn't endorse injuring them... even people that should know better. Not to mention, I think you give way too much credit to too many pitchers at this level by believing they could actually pinpoint a part of the body where they're throwing. Beyond this point, my initial interest in this topic was piqued by what appears to be a double standard... why do so many endorse a pitcher throwing the ball at the batter, but so vehemently disagree with the equivalent of a batter hitting the pitcher with a bat? And further, when it appears like so many in our community endorse intentionally throwing at hitters, why is it surprising when a hitter assumes it's intentional when hit by a pitch and reacts with anger? Nate, please either - keep your posts below 100 words. Haven't counted, just guessing... sorry. Nate, please either - stop quoting people. Crap... sorry. |
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Post by dogboy on Dec 22, 2011 10:04:10 GMT 10
So a bloke can be a dick on or off the field and you may not like him or what he has done but that's no reason to throw at them. If a batter gets popped and goes at the pitcher he gets thrown but if a pitcher pops a batter and pleads innocents and keeps playing the game. I don't think it matters if you throw at his head, ribs or hips it's still un-sportsman like and should not be acceptable. If you see the same guy on the street do walk up a punch him in the head, ribs or hip? The answer is NO so what gives you the right to do it on the diamond? I agree a pitch that comes at 80-90 miles hr inside is enough of a statement without having to hit someone! Let's all reflect on what we are doing, we are playing a game because we love it, if you want to pop people for a minor thing maybe your in the wrong sport and should join boxing. When it's all said and done you throw at someone to hurt them all because they hurt your ego!!!
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