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Post by mastermind on Oct 22, 2011 18:52:25 GMT 10
For those of you who are not aware this season has begun with a change to the women’s draw. All teams have been placed into 4 pools, the first three pools consisting of 2 teams from each division according to last year’s standings. This lasts for five weeks after which time the teams are divided into divisions based on where they finish in their pool.
Sounds simple enough, right? Except each team/club has an opinion on where they or their team/s should be placed for the season and are doing their best to manipulate the outcomes of games to finish the team in the desired position within their pool
It is clear to me that the advice or opinions that BV are seeking or receiving, with relation to the women’s competition, are not directly involved within the competition otherwise there would be no need for such a poor attempt at a grading system.
Would a process of promotion/relegation not be a simpler method to ensure each team is playing within the division to which they are suited?
This system is not only unfair on the women playing (fancy being a division three team and coming up against the best teams in the state), it is also an embarrassment to BV and the game of baseball itself.
I for one, feel for those girls who have never played a game of baseball in their life, and may come up to face an Australian pitcher for their first ever AB!!
Shame on you BV!!
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Post by aussie22 on Oct 22, 2011 21:53:42 GMT 10
Well said mastermind. I completely agree, a promotion/relegation system would have made much more sense. It was quite obvious at the end of last season which teams should be in which divisions, no need to play around with it.
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fairgo
Junior Member
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Post by fairgo on Oct 23, 2011 8:33:52 GMT 10
For those of you who are not aware this season has begun with a change to the women’s draw. All teams have been placed into 4 pools, the first three pools consisting of 2 teams from each division according to last year’s standings. This lasts for five weeks after which time the teams are divided into divisions based on where they finish in their pool. Sounds simple enough, right? Except each team/club has an opinion on where they or their team/s should be placed for the season and are doing their best to manipulate the outcomes of games to finish the team in the desired position within their pool It is clear to me that the advice or opinions that BV are seeking or receiving, with relation to the women’s competition, are not directly involved within the competition otherwise there would be no need for such a poor attempt at a grading system. Would a process of promotion/relegation not be a simpler method to ensure each team is playing within the division to which they are suited? This system is not only unfair on the women playing (fancy being a division three team and coming up against the best teams in the state), it is also an embarrassment to BV and the game of baseball itself. I for one, feel for those girls who have never played a game of baseball in their life, and may come up to face an Australian pitcher for their first ever AB!! Shame on you BV!! I agree, we only have to look at what happened in last years U18's where the top three or four teams played against each other in the first part of the season only to have poor quality teams making the top grade because they were the best of the worst ... Bad for the game, the players , everyone...
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signs
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Post by signs on Oct 23, 2011 12:09:36 GMT 10
Whilst I understand your concerns, the womens draw has been so lop sided and the division 2 and 3 teams that got an import this year (Geelong) will want a fair chance to test themselves. So what is the remedy to this situation? Have this happen, 5 game qualification round? Have a redraw half way? Get some members on the pennant committee? Make a suggestion and let them incorporate in at Baseball victoria.
Fairgo Do not put down things that you do not know anything about? Tell me the team that went to Upwey from Doncaster to play in qualification round, it had Dan McGrath as the 3rd baseman, and only 7 players? For more to say join the pennant committee!!
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Post by splitfinger on Oct 23, 2011 12:22:36 GMT 10
I also agree.
I think BV attempt to use a promotion/relegation system each year but some teams but they never follow through. For example Doncaster B won Division 2 a few years ago, but when the next season came around, they weren't up into Division 1. I'm not sure if it was Donny who baulked at the chance, or BV not wanting 2 teams from 1 club in the top division. For what it's worth, my opinion is that if a club has 2 teams worthy of Division 1, they should both be there.
If you are doing a qualifying system, use the same division splits from the previous season, everyone play each other once and then promote/relegate as appropriate to play out the remainder of the season.
Only time will tell how much of a debacle this will be....
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Post by wearnie52 on Oct 23, 2011 14:44:52 GMT 10
Signs, you're very quick to judge on things I'm not sure you know all about. There were two women on the pennant committee two years ago, who have been playing women's baseball for 15 years. None of their ideas were put in place, and none of the things they put in place to better the competition are still in place now.
A simple promotion/relegation system needs to happen. Let teams who win div 2 go up for a year and have a crack, and let the bottom placed side in div 1 go down for a year and improve.
There were teams this year who wanted to play div 1, and who should have been given the chance. Let them play a year, if they finish on the bottom, they go down. Simple.
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Post by mastermind on Oct 23, 2011 17:31:51 GMT 10
Tigertails Signs, care to reappoint a female member back onto the pennant committee at all???
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signs
Junior Member
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Post by signs on Oct 23, 2011 18:56:50 GMT 10
To answer all the q's from Wearnie52 and mastermind Maybe it is time for the womens to be run as a seperate competition and controlled by a seperate committee. mastermind I do not know what you infer but what is this tigertails crossed out, we are not the same person as I knowwho tigertails is and he is no friend of mine? I am sure that a woman on the committee would be sensational, but from my reading there is a representative from Springvale and another woman on the committee now. So it says in the conditions booklet. Join if you want I am sure that they would like more women, see Wearnie52.
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Post by larry42 on Oct 24, 2011 8:58:34 GMT 10
I wondered when this topic or similar would be raised. I'm just going to make observations because opinions seem to get shot down very quickly by much smarter people.
Firstly, like it ot not BV tried something different similar to the junior set up. Does it work? A huge No. Will it happen again next year will be the question for BV and the summer league committee to work out.
Promotion/relegation does not always work either and the womens competition offers a different challenge. The team that finished bottom of Div 1 last year is a better fit for Div 1 the next year over the team that won Div 2. This may change year to year though.
What we know from these 5 games is that a number of them will be non competitive and its not good for the teams nor the players involved. I saw the tail end of Malvern A taking care of Waverley B 25-0 last week. Tough game for a 2nd team with a girl throwing her second game of baseball to come up against a good group of girls. Or Footscray B girls having to face a current Aust hurler on the way to a 28-0 drubbing. Couldn't have been any fun for them.
We could have been playing 5 rounds of competitive baseball for points right now. Unfortunately we are playing for posturing.
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Post by wearnie52 on Oct 24, 2011 9:51:03 GMT 10
signs, is that info about the representatives on the committee in the same conditions book that states the women's league has a DP and re-entry rule? If so, i'd suggest you check your 'memos', because apparently even though they are stated in the rule book, they don't exist.
Not much point having a conditions book that has the incorrect rules in it.
larry42........i know there are teams out there who don't want to play Division One, i get that. But it makes it very hard when they then stay down in Div 2 and beat everyone every year. Doesn't seem fair on the teams that don't win many games in Div 1, or the teams they beat all the time in Div 2.
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Post by regg44 on Oct 24, 2011 11:57:12 GMT 10
I also agree. I think BV attempt to use a promotion/relegation system each year but some teams but they never follow through. For example Doncaster B won Division 2 a few years ago, but when the next season came around, they weren't up into Division 1. I'm not sure if it was Donny who baulked at the chance, or BV not wanting 2 teams from 1 club in the top division. For what it's worth, my opinion is that if a club has 2 teams worthy of Division 1, they should both be there. If you are doing a qualifying system, use the same division splits from the previous season, everyone play each other once and then promote/relegate as appropriate to play out the remainder of the season. Only time will tell how much of a debacle this will be.... Donny very definitely wanted B team in Div 1 when this happended, in fact put a submission to BV for that to occur....answer was you cant have two teams from the same club in Div 1
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Post by larry42 on Oct 24, 2011 13:39:42 GMT 10
signs, is that info about the representatives on the committee in the same conditions book that states the women's league has a DP and re-entry rule? If so, i'd suggest you check your 'memos', because apparently even though they are stated in the rule book, they don't exist. Not much point having a conditions book that has the incorrect rules in it. larry42........i know there are teams out there who don't want to play Division One, i get that. But it makes it very hard when they then stay down in Div 2 and beat everyone every year. Doesn't seem fair on the teams that don't win many games in Div 1, or the teams they beat all the time in Div 2. W52 - You know that we will agree to disagree on this one. Who does it make it hard on? Or is it merely the fact that other people believe that a team should be playing higher for the benefit of who/what? Last year in Div 2 the games between the top 4 teams (Wav/Werr/Donc B/ Foot) were pretty good, especially the games between the top 2. A number of girls this year are playing to help the club make it through another year while they try and recruit younger players and work on the youth that they have so they can be in a position to move up be it next year or beyond. I think im in a position to know this as fact. Would playing Div 1 help in the short term considering they are ther walking wounded? If they finish top 2 they wont have a choice.
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mandi
Junior Member
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Post by mandi on Oct 24, 2011 18:50:56 GMT 10
regg44, i find that hard to believe as springvale have done it for the past 2 years to better the competition.
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Post by houghy49 on Oct 24, 2011 21:30:50 GMT 10
Donny very definitely wanted B team in Div 1 when this happended, in fact put a submission to BV for that to occur....answer was you cant have two teams from the same club in Div 1 regg44 - Curious regg, when exactly did Donny put in a submission to have two teams in Div 1?? Coz they never did it in the time I was playing there that's for sure!! I know for a fact that Donny were put into Div 1 at some stage over the last couple of years and were clearly not impressed by the fact that this had happened. Somehow, whoever manages to pull strings every time they are not happy about something, got their way again and they were put back down to Div 2. I agree with Wearnie on this one. Top team/s in Div 2/3 goes up, bottom team/s in Div 1/2 goes down. Seems pretty simple to me really. That way, each team is playing where they deserve to be each year. Shouldn't matter who is NOT going to be playing at the club the next season, that's 12 months away. Let's concentrate on the now and the current season.
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Post by larry42 on Oct 25, 2011 13:22:49 GMT 10
Houghy - promotion/relegation at womens is not as cut and dried as the mens competition. IMO, it should then be a two year deal with an application by teams in the promotion/relegation zone for up and down. Especially when you are talking moving up to Div 1 because like it or not, the division is top heavy with 3 clubs dominating and its been that way for a few years. For some clubs/teams looking to consolidate and build, playing against half state teams every second week is not always the best way to do it.
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Post by regg44 on Oct 27, 2011 12:07:25 GMT 10
Houghy and Mandi
Donny put submission in maybe 4 years ago, when Steve Walker was CEO. 2's had won back to back flags and if my memory serves me correctly they may have had div 1 and 2 all start together then did a re draw. Donny's 2's actually were in div 3.
I know the submission went in as I prepared the draft and Steve supported it however Pennant C'tee wouldn't budge with the main "excuse" given that they wouldn't allow 2 teams from one club in Div 1.
That things have now changed is for the betterment of the competition.
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Post by larry42 on Oct 31, 2011 11:16:41 GMT 10
Moor 14 Wav 8
Hate to see the score if they were competing in D1.
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Post by houghy49 on Oct 31, 2011 16:27:22 GMT 10
Moor 14 Wav 8 Hate to see the score if they were competing in D1. Were the 'first' 9 playing or were they playing with 7 in the 1's again this week?
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Post by bundysundy on Oct 31, 2011 18:01:58 GMT 10
Moor 14 Wav 8 Hate to see the score if they were competing in D1. Were the 'first' 9 playing or were they playing with 7 in the 1's again this week? Exactly Houghy. The last thing ill be using in your argument Larry would be the Waverley womens side.
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Post by mastermind on Oct 31, 2011 22:42:57 GMT 10
I mean no disrepect to any player or any club in creating this thread however the last post has only moved to strengthen my argument.
Waverley have clearly not played their top side in their 1's in order to minipulate the outcome. If they where serious about playing and playing in a division which suits their abilities they would not have fill in players in their 1's.
Obviously you have some association with Waverley Larry42 and I hope that your comment regarding the fitness and arms of players in your 1's is not in reference to the same individuals that held down key positions in the Vic white team not 6 months ago.
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Post by The Puma on Nov 1, 2011 6:36:46 GMT 10
They had 9 take the field Houghy which included an injured/recovering player and an occasional fill in who is also injured and shouldn't of played. I heard the argfuement again on the weekend (over heard someone complaining about it) Who really gives a sh!t, a team with experienced players doesnt mean they are going to compete in D1. The don't have the arms or fitness to go in D1. Argue thaqt or call them selfish, whatever. but you don't know the individual circumstances of these girls so find it funny that players can comment. I am astounded that anyone could not have a problem with a team cheating to finish where it wants to. The Waverley baseball club women's program should hang their heads in shame. And larry, read my sig.
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Post by larry42 on Nov 1, 2011 10:44:37 GMT 10
Yep you are all 100% correct as you all know exactly what is happening at a club you know everything about, including you Trav.
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Post by MF on Nov 1, 2011 12:04:25 GMT 10
Waverley have clearly not played their top side in their 1's in order to minipulate the outcome. If they where serious about playing and playing in a division which suits their abilities they would not have fill in players in their 1's. mastermind, you are wrong. Perhaps I can use capital letters to help everyone: Waverley HAVE played their top side. They have NOT tried to manipulate the competition. What, such as Paula, who is rehabbing from shoulder surgery? Or Skip, who is still recovering from the injury she suffered on the first day of Nationals six months ago? Between injury, unavailability, and departed players, Waverley has had to work hard every week to fill their two teams using the best players available. Your statements just show that you are uninformed. Try listening to Larry instead.
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Post by MF on Nov 1, 2011 12:10:26 GMT 10
I am astounded that anyone could not have a problem with a team cheating to finish where it wants to. The Waverley baseball club women's program should hang their heads in shame. Wow, what a post. It's rare to see something so stupidly ignorant AND blantantly insulting. Well done, a rare combination. (Actually, this is the internet, isn't it? I guess it's pretty common after all.)
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Post by The Puma on Nov 1, 2011 12:41:44 GMT 10
So Waverley have played their best available nine every week during qualifying have they?
There's something stupidly ignorant here all right.
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Post by larry42 on Nov 1, 2011 17:50:41 GMT 10
To get back on the topic and the resulting durection that BV will take next year will be interesting. I'm not sure that the depth of the women's league it can afford anotgher start to the season with the pool games. Thats just an opinion. Hopefully a good solution that suits the high majority of teams can be worked out 9not sure that any solution will suit every team/club) but its needed. The womens competition needs stability and direction.
There wer two womens players on the pennant committee last year and through a lack of support (from the mouth of one of them) they are no longer involved. Shame because those two would have done good things for the program.
Trav, when you try and palm off information that you get that is wrong then that makes you wrong, again.
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Post by The Puma on Nov 2, 2011 4:38:04 GMT 10
Just asking mate, best nine or not? But we know the answer to that don't we.
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Post by bundysundy on Nov 2, 2011 8:28:01 GMT 10
There wer two womens players on the pennant committee last year and through a lack of support (from the mouth of one of them) they are no longer involved. Shame because those two would have done good things for the program. . Both were asked specifically to go on the Pennant committee then their ideas wernt listened to and their opinions on a lot of occasions were just shot down. Then to top it off there is now longer a specific women's development officer! No wonder this forum has been having some of the same discussions on women's baseball for the last 3 years!! I'm going to have a bundy and a lie down
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Post by larry42 on Nov 2, 2011 10:57:16 GMT 10
Just asking mate, best nine or not? But we know the answer to that don't we. You are like a dog with a bone aren't you? I know the answer because i'm involved. You don't because you are only guessing or going by poor advice.
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Post by rightie on Nov 2, 2011 11:10:47 GMT 10
I think the answer is very obvious Larry but for some reason you don't want to face the facts, Waverley would rather beat up on div 2 teams and win pennants than play where they belong
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