|
Post by houghy49 on Sept 24, 2012 14:09:17 GMT 10
Wyatt, we at Springvale, held the 4th annual pre-season tournament on Saturday.
21 girls turned up to play. That's half of what we had the first year. 17 of those girls were from Springvale. That's roughly 2/3's of Springvale's women's program turning up, and roughly 4/200's of the other clubs.
Simone, myself and numerous others have tried lots of different strategies over the last few years. There's only so much you can do to try and improve the competition without the help of other clubs.
I for one know that I'll be playing men's all year round if next season other clubs don't step up and start doing things for women's baseball as a whole and not just their own club!!!!
There won't be a competition in 5 years time. Women's baseball is in a sad place at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by runningbunt on Sept 24, 2012 14:17:36 GMT 10
I dont think having a 4 team first division is going to help.
How many teams are in division 2? Surely there should not be two divisions if the womens numbers are down.
Playing the same teams every three weeks, is just going to push more players away from the sport, or to playing mens.
If you merged division one and two, maybe there would be an oportunity for 2nds or fringe players from the two powerful clubs to move to other clubs?
For example, would Essendon recruit more players from Doncaster if they did not have to play 2nd division baseball?
On another note: What would division one play for if they knew they were secure in the fact that they are already in the finals?
Would Doncaster and Springvale try and hide their pitchers from one another, instead of giving their hitters 30+ AB's against the pitcher they are going to face in the finals?
I say just play the finals off the bat.
Have a best of 5 play-off against each team.
I do not think there is any point playing home and away matches.
|
|
|
Post by wyatt33 on Sept 24, 2012 15:07:05 GMT 10
Why the reluctance to put teams up Larry? Do you honestly think it looks good, or is good for the comp to only have 4 teams? Its a bloody terrible look. And the league can take some responsibility for it, making it way too easy for players to move from one club to another, leaving some clubs struggling while a select few get stronger.
|
|
|
Post by larry42 on Sept 24, 2012 16:05:53 GMT 10
Why the reluctance to put teams up Larry? Do you honestly think it looks good, or is good for the comp to only have 4 teams? Its a bloody terrible look. And the league can take some responsibility for it, making it way too easy for players to move from one club to another, leaving some clubs struggling while a select few get stronger. Mate, you would have to ask reps from clubs such as Port and Geel why they have nominated to come down but i'd hazard to guess its the fact that they dont feel they are as strong as they were last year due to player losses and come down. Other teams already playing in D2 may feel that they dont have the personnel to run with teams such as SpringyDonc and Malv, and the way it is structured they are completely in their right to make the decision which suits their club and where they feel they are heading. Houghy - its not 5 years away. More like 2 or 3 with two lower divisions.
|
|
|
Post by houghy49 on Sept 24, 2012 16:46:52 GMT 10
Houghy - its not 5 years away. More like 2 or 3 with two lower divisions. I'm talking about the whole league Kane not just div 1. Div 1 - I'd say 1-2 years....
|
|
mandi
Junior Member
Posts: 74
|
Post by mandi on Sept 24, 2012 16:52:14 GMT 10
i am pretty sure i spoke on the same topic last season when we knew of the 5 week round robin, lets say all up there are 22 teams in the womens league, why can't div 1 have 8 teams, 4 strong and 4 that can hold their own against the bot 4, and who knows may rally against the top 4 sides at times, then have 6 teams in div 2, with the 2 teams playing off in the grand final go up to div 1 the following year with the 2 that finished bottom in div 1 come down, and then have the 8 teams in div 3 with the same relegation/delegation as above. the only problem with this is the clubs that have teams in multiple divisions, speaking from experience it is hard for the club to have 2 teams in the same division.
|
|
mandi
Junior Member
Posts: 74
|
Post by mandi on Sept 24, 2012 16:56:26 GMT 10
If they decide to combine the current div 1 and div 2 teams into the one division i dont think there should be a redraw, so going on my above number of teams that would leave 14 teams in div 1/2 and 8 teams in div 3, perhaps 2 teams that struggled last year with numbers etc could go to div 3 to create 12 teams in div 1/2 and 10 teams in div 3. i think by having a redraw will create the unspoken "tanking" every week until the last few games.
|
|
|
Post by larry42 on Sept 24, 2012 17:54:13 GMT 10
Houghy - its not 5 years away. More like 2 or 3 with two lower divisions. I'm talking about the whole league Kane not just div 1. Div 1 - I'd say 1-2 years.... #49 - the teams who are affected the most at the moment with the current climate of womens baseball is Donc and Springy and this has been a storm brewing for a while. It hasnt just jumped up from nowhere and kicked people in the ass. When you have two clubs who are that much better than the rest (and i stand and applaud both clubs for their efforts, not mud slinging here) pretty much sharing the state team between both clubs, at some point the competition was going to fall away. Other clubs may be working hard but the non ability to recruit players at that level, non ability to bring in any really good kids to the program, and the loss of players from their existing program are big factors. Div 1 is done for a short term other than those 4 teams. I knew you meant the whole league but there will always be a chance for clubs to fight it out in a lower league unless everyone just packs up and last club to leave turns the lights out! Im expecting 14 teams across one division and thats how it will happen. Will that work....time will tell. Will the 14th team enjoy playing at donc or Spring when they didn't think they'd be doing that one week ago....time will tell.
|
|
|
Post by wearnie52 on Sept 24, 2012 18:23:37 GMT 10
Would be good if, at some point, people stood up and mentioned the actual reasons why women's baseball is where it is right now, instead of the usual line of 'it is all because of Springvale and Doncaster'.
Sick of hearing it. If clubs refuse to develop their own programs, or play higher with not much short term reward, then it's all going to end sooner rather than later. You have a short memory Kane.
To add one last thing, BV need to grow some balls and get clubs playing in Division One. If people are given the easy option of not having to do anything or try all that hard, then they are very likely to take it.
I commend Big Kev for his efforts at Footscray. His program is struggling, yet they still want to battle in Div 1. Our club went through the same thing 15 years ago, suffered some very hard times.........guess hard work does pay off if you can be bothered.
|
|
|
Post by eckersley43 on Sept 24, 2012 19:58:41 GMT 10
It's not like an expanded Div 1 would have a particular team team playing Doncaster and Springvale every week, so than be some wins for most if not all.I would have thought the challenge/experience of playing against the best in Victoria would appeal to young players. I know Footscray very much want to regardless of results. There are lots of sporting competitions where one or two teams dominate, which seems to me to be a reason to have many teams (not less ) in the division to balance it out.
|
|
|
Post by splitfinger on Sept 24, 2012 22:21:29 GMT 10
To add one last thing, BV need to grow some balls and get clubs playing in Division One. If people are given the easy option of not having to do anything or try all that hard, then they are very likely to take it. Agreed Wearnie. Even more so because it was said previously that division 1 has a few part time pitchers stepping up to have a go. While they more than likely do very well, it's an opportunity to even things out a bit. Have Geelong pulled out completely, or just out of division 1? Who does everyone think could (or should) bulk up division 1 - Port, Waverley, Springy2, Donny2?
|
|
|
Post by larry42 on Sept 25, 2012 6:44:50 GMT 10
Simone, not sure where you read into that post of it being Doncaster and Spring being the problem. It was stated that both teams are the ones affected the most because of being the best two, with daylight third. I commend both clubs for the development of their programs over the years and their ability to keep the majority of their rosters and develop some of their younger girls. Best two clubs to have done that in the short history of women's baseball. You guys have played in GF's for the past x-amount of years because of this. You and I may agree to disagree on some things with baseball, but I think we agree that it takes a fair bit of passion and commitment from a club and members of that club to keep a women's program firing and at the top. I think I understand that it's because of clubs not developing or embracing their women's program is why it is where it is.
You are spot on with the hard work pays off if you or a number of people within a program or club can be bothered. Some clubs are lucky, or should I say well managed, while others aren't. When I was at port in the early days the club was similar to spring vale now where the club put an enormous amount of time and energy behind the women's program. But it never felt longer term because we didn't have kids coming through and because of the fickle nature and other circumstances, things went backwards quickly. The program has never been able to get back to that level although it is a club that still prides itself on the program.
BV may have just grown that pair as well if they throw 14 teams in to one division.
|
|
|
Post by wyatt33 on Sept 25, 2012 8:09:22 GMT 10
Throwing 14 teams in first won't do women's baseball any favors! There are clearly a couple of clubs that need to 'grow a pair', as has been stated, and put into first div whether they like it or not. And one of those is your current club Larry. They have been string for a couple of years, and we've spoken of their apparent indifference to going up, because it doesn't suit them. Throw port, Geelong werribee in as well, and then the next best credentialed side, and you have 8 teams! How hard is it? Just tell them...if the crack the nutss and pull the pin, then it shows just how serious these teams are about development of women's baseball. I here it all the time, but it just doesn't exist. There's too much emphasis put on winning a flag by some of these teams.
|
|
|
Post by larry42 on Sept 25, 2012 9:21:32 GMT 10
Throwing 14 teams in first won't do women's baseball any favors! There are clearly a couple of clubs that need to 'grow a pair', as has been stated, and put into first div whether they like it or not. And one of those is your current club Larry. They have been string for a couple of years, and we've spoken of their apparent indifference to going up, because it doesn't suit them. Throw port, Geelong werribee in as well, and then the next best credentialed side, and you have 8 teams! How hard is it? Just tell them...if the crack the nutss and pull the pin, then it shows just how serious these teams are about development of women's baseball. I here it all the time, but it just doesn't exist. There's too much emphasis put on winning a flag by some of these teams. Damo, what i know is that its not going to matter what i say because there are people out there who can think what they want to think, believe what they want to believe and then keep pulling out the 'DEVELOPMENT OF WOMENS BASEBALL' line. You hear it all the time...ive been involved in it since the first year so ive heard it every year. What exactly is this because im sure its a floating definition. Does every club have to do what is best for what other clubs believe they need to do, or do they focus on developing their own club that can fit in to that model for years to come. This arguement is bigger than what i can be bothered typing. This will be the last thing i say about the Wav womens team as talking and thinking about it gets me down and i havent even started the season yet. rumor: they plot every year to win div 2 grand finals Fact: No they don't plot the downfall of womens baseball each year by turning up and playing a social brand of baseball. They, most of them, have paid their dues since 1995/96, given this sport enough, icluding development of some players, and if winning the GF was the be all and end all then i dont know why my better half cant find any of her medallions. What i do know is that i'll go home tonight and question her as to why she would even want to consider suiting up again for another season of playing with people she regards as close friends, deal with the bullnuts that now goes with putting on a wildcats tops, question why she will miss half of her 10 yr old sons domestic baseball games to play (Of thats right because a small f#ckin' medallion at the end of the year is such a substitute). Maybe its just me who thinks that this sport needs, and indeed Div 1, to rely on people who arent in their mid 40s and racked with injuries. People can sit on the outside and assume or throw stones. There are issues with the Wav program internally which they need to address before they can even worry about on the on field stuff. But i'd still guess that all teams will be thrown together and play a larger division.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 10:10:29 GMT 10
Like many I hope that Womens baseball survives this latest issue/conundrum and has a meaningful and viable competition for all standards of play. But correct me if Im wrong but is the probelm here more to do with the relevant standard of the players and teams? in that two teams have serious depth and have elevated themselves above the rest for many years now and this has fed into many of them playing the next highest level (State/National) BUT other Div1 clubs have a handful of players that can 'cut it' at that level and there is a significant drop off that has them as individuals either a) working harder to bridge the gap in capability OR b) continue to play the game recreationally and potentially become disillusioned in playing that higher standard and striking out 3 times on a Saturday afternoon when they can play 2s and smash the ball and have fun.
It will be hard to see the periferal teams all of a sudden come up to Div 1 standard AS A TEAM but any intention (like Footscrays desire to try) should be encouraged.
Maybe there could be thought given to a 'weighted fixture' over the next season or two where the top sides play each other more often than the lower sides i.e. a 6 team Grade where the previous years Grand Finalist play each other say 4 times, and they both play the 3rd and maybe 4th placed teams 3 times, and they play the 5th and 6th placed teams only twice (and vice versa).
|
|
|
Post by wyatt33 on Sept 25, 2012 10:14:54 GMT 10
I appreciate the effort you've put into the women's game, and that there are issues with some clubs. Maybe I wasn't being fair in isolating waverley. But.....when we talk about the development of the game, maybe we should be rethinking what we mean by development. I believe we should instead be mentioning the survival of the game! Because it's clear there are massive divides between the haves and have nots in women's. And it's clear that this issue is at the heart of some clubs decisions to not want to got to the next level. It's a complex problem, that is clearly troubling the decision makers at bv. Let's all hope that a productive outcome is achieved, and the game can go forward in the future.
|
|
|
Post by larry42 on Sept 25, 2012 13:08:49 GMT 10
Its not about what ive done mate, its the fact that ive been around and heard this for years. How do we develop baseball. Where is the pathway taking the womens game?
|
|
|
Post by oldmanriver on Sept 25, 2012 14:50:08 GMT 10
I feel that Womens baseball will struggle especially seeing as how it doesn't really have a dedicated junior competition. I suppose, it is time to think out of the square and address the problem head on. I noticed larry that you said where is the pathway taking the womens game. From what I can see, there is no pathway, especially not in the schools, which is probably where you would want to start. Most clubs in the juniors will average maybe 3 or 4 girls playing in the junior comp, but without a dedicated junior girls comp it will always be hard to maintain a high level standard in the Womens League.
|
|
|
Post by Marshy on Sept 25, 2012 15:08:07 GMT 10
OMR, I will confess, I know NOTHING about women's baseball or how it's managed, what you're hinting at there, sounds a lot like junior criteria.....
We all know how that discussion is going in another thread.
|
|
|
Post by houghy49 on Sept 25, 2012 15:23:25 GMT 10
I'm curious to know what has happened to all the hard work myself and a few others put in whilst I was at BV getting an U15 program off the ground? Although it was only 12 months old when I finished up, and only getting up off the ground back then, it would be an absolute waste if this has not been followed up with! www.baseballvictoria.com.au/?Page=65739&MenuID=Competitions%2F14407%2F0%2CJunior%5FGirls%5FLeague%2F14508%2F71889%2C2010%2D11%5FNews%2F24313%2F73618%2FI'm not talking about the Junior Girls Friendship Series, it's great that we are holding that in Victoria next weekend.... I'm talking about an actual U15 program. Women's baseball in Victoria is fast deteriorating and the lack of an U15 program is what will make it fall flat on it's face over the next few years! What has happened to the development officer (Justin Huber) at BV? Are they bothering with this anymore??? Oh no, it's women's baseball.... who gives a sh!t.
|
|
|
Post by oldmanriver on Sept 25, 2012 15:50:14 GMT 10
Marshy, I also have know nothing of the mechanisms of womens baseball or how it is managed and I definately wasn't hinting at that other forum. Houghy seems to have hit the nail on the head and seems to have answered the question. Perhaps BV should be readdressing the U/15 scenario and start putting some sort of effort to try and establish a pathway for junior girls in baseball. As for the running of womens baseball in victoria, perhaps that would be best left to those people who are passionate and have knowledge of womens baseball.
|
|
|
Post by eckersley43 on Sept 25, 2012 16:37:41 GMT 10
Toatally agree with OMRiver re schools involvement. I have NEVER seen any information or visitation regarding girls/women's baseball. It wouldn't cost a fortune to have advertising in the schools, visitation or invitations to Womens events to create some interest. B.V. is best suited to do this, otherwise clubs recruiting will be restricted to their local area. From what I can see it's not so much a case of who cares about Women's baseball ( in schools) but the broader problem of who cares about female sport in general.
|
|
|
Post by wyatt33 on Sept 25, 2012 17:13:05 GMT 10
Knowledge of baseball is required OMR! You don't need to know anything about bloody women's baseball....just have a dip. They need to be taught and coach the same as any bloke would.
|
|
|
Post by eckersley43 on Sept 25, 2012 20:24:45 GMT 10
Wyatt..the issue is one of recruitment and competition awareness. The teaching/coaching in Women's baseball isn't the problem
|
|
mandi
Junior Member
Posts: 74
|
Post by mandi on Sept 25, 2012 21:31:58 GMT 10
so we seem to think that there will be 14 teams in the one division and then 8 teams in the other. that i understand, may not like but would rather play that than the same team every 3rd week, but definately no redraw, play the season out as it is, just like the mens, this way hopefully it will challenge all clubs to play at their best at all times to get to the ultimate finals. another thing to look at is maybe the age of girls to play womens, in the winter the girls must be 13, maybe consider this for div 3 only, gives the girls a go at the larger diamond in the lower grade to start with before putting them up straight away. May also keep some girls in the game a little longer as they actually have some where to play if they dont want to play in the boys.
|
|
|
Post by eckersley43 on Sept 25, 2012 22:17:12 GMT 10
14 teams in one division has a lot of positives, but it may need the introduction of the 7 runs per innings maximum rule in Division 1, so that we don't have some games where the weaker team players spend 90% of the day in defence.
|
|
|
Post by larry42 on Sept 25, 2012 22:23:41 GMT 10
14 teams in one division works for more clubs than not. Every team plays the other once which is 13 games. Would need to work out those clubs which have two teams as far as eligibility and also finals set up
|
|
mandi
Junior Member
Posts: 74
|
Post by mandi on Sept 25, 2012 22:36:56 GMT 10
i am pretty sure when springvale had the 2 teams in div 1 last time that we had to name 7 players that could only play in the "team A" as such, would assume that would be the same. what else could be the finals set up other than top 4?
|
|
|
Post by stuartcapel on Sept 25, 2012 22:45:35 GMT 10
Finals eligibility is simple. If you play more games in Team A then you play finals in Team A. If you play more games in Team B then you play finals in Team B.
Seven run rule in a fourteen team competition has plenty of merit and is a fair and reasonable suggestion, though I wonder if going from five to fourteen teams solves more problems or creates them. I'd prefer no redraw myself but for one club making their womens players pay near $400 in fees for thirteen games would be grossly unfair.
To me (and perhaps only me), at this point, eight would be a more appropriate number of teams in the top flight at this point. With fourteen, somehow the women's division would outnumber mens division one teams and that's not right.
|
|
|
Post by houghy49 on Sept 25, 2012 22:59:07 GMT 10
Seems pretty simple to me I would say:
Div 1: Springvale x 2 teams Doncaster x 2 teams Malvern Geelong Footscray Port Melbourne Waverley Werribee
Play each team twice, that's 18 games. Any less would be ridiculous and wasting our money!
Div 2 has 12/13 teams and also play 18 games (not sure of who else has nominated teams for the women's this year).
I agree with Mandi, BV need to allow 13 year olds to play again (Div 2 would be perfect for them). Why this rule was changed a couple of years ago is beyond me.
|
|