Sign or School

[oldracer]

Just want to throw it out there for a bit with quite a few signings of young players just recently but also the history of players signing as against going to college in the US.
I have heard from quite a few that should they have their time again, they would have gone to school but I can guess the buzz of the signing would be overwhelming.
Given the odds, would 4 years of college outweigh the pro length of stay with generally more game time at school.
The option to sign here only happens to the very talented or projected talent but the competition in the states is in a lot of instances, overwhelming.
Plenty of ex pro's here, what's everyone's thoughts, a few scouts also frequent these pages, do our kids really have a chance or will the vast majority ultimately be roster fillers and short term signings.

[Deleted]

racer, it is a fascinating and very important discussion that should be pursued by those with insight who visit these pages.

The recently-departed communications person with Baseball Victoria was being actively encouraged to research and report upon this very issue and its implications.

A select few - such as Josh Spence - have been able to combine a college education with a developing professional career.

There are others (Dean McIntyre and Michael Pollock are two who come to mind) who took the college option and came home with an education, a career and a sense of how baseball best fitted into their lives. Those "returning" players will bring skill, class and great experience back to our domestic competitions.

There are others who signed for some dollars as teenagers and who never even came close to making baseball their career in the states. Others, over the past 10-15 years, who gave professional baseball a pretty decent shot without making it to the bigs.

Others, again, like Peter Moylan and possibly Andrew Russell (though he's struggling a bit lately) who have been presented with an opportunity at a more mature age.

Whether a young guy has gone with the college option or picking up on a professional contract, either way there will have been positive and possibly negative learning experiences (both of which one can argue are useful to our development as human beings).

One thing is for sure. We can look forward to more and more of our kids being presented with opportunities in the USA (and elsewhere) - whether at professional or college level. That, properly managed, has to be a good thing, even if there are the inevitable disappointments along the journey.

We look forward to input from those who are or have been directly involved in the "Sign or School" process.

BTW, racer, I see that a certain young bloke from your stable is hitting the ball OK in college ball at the moment.

[oldracer]

KC, he's had a pretty good season so far but the "putt for dough" part of the season is about to begin, they are a good side so should account for themselves pretty well.
It's a discussion I have had individually with many people, we were not fortunate enough to have had the problem of making the choice but having a combined 7 years of college at 5 different schools certainly has given me the "school" perspective and the understanding of the talent level that doesn't get a look in from pro ball in the states.
That perspective also provides an understanding of the enormity of the task when our kids sign at a young age.
The college experience certainly doesn't come without it's share of "fight" plenty of locker room push and shove goes on so it's not just pro ball when the dog eat dog aspect of baseball in the states is discussed. Love to hear everyones comments.

[swearne]

a well discussed topic around baseball all over the country no doubt. having been to college before playin pro ball i would have to say i made the rite choice. apart from the baseball side of things it is a great life experience. obviously when a 16 yr old kid gets a sum of money waived in front of them it is hard to say no. reality is if you are that good college will only make you better and you will still get drafted and play pro ball. the difference is you will have played baseball everyday for a few years you will be stronger and smarter about the game. however i would have to say that many kids that sign out here may not get the chance to play proball if they took the college path.

[bobby]

After talking with a number of kids at nationals earlier this month I can see both sides to the story:
Some of the kids can not afford to go to college even if they get help with the scholarship so it is easier for them to sign...some of the kids want to be tradies so they don't see the value in going to college either and some kids just want to sign so they can play pro.
If I had my choice I would choose college as it gives you an education whilst you get the opportunity to play baseball and get seen by more scouts than you would here.

I could never fault a kid or his parents for going either way, my job would be to make sure they know the options available to them so they can make the right choice for them....

[barb05]

Nakamura is another good example of going through the college system first. Some many years ago when I talked with him about it he touched on the workload and emphasis on going from playing club ball to baseball being a full time focus and learning how to train your body better to cope with the demands and so on. I got the feeling that he thought college provided a better platform of baseball education as well.

I must say (and this might rub some people the wrong way) but when I see some of the kids signing "contracts" and compare them to some of the imports that have been over recently (who are not signed)... I really wonder wtf is going on. I often wonder if the signing is any good long term by inflating the egos and hopes of these kids who throw possible career and future opportunities away in search of a dream.

Are the kids who are being signed having their expectations managed properly? If not, who's responsibility is it to do this... Maybe some of the guys who have been over and tried their hand through college and pro ball should set up a support/mentoring group for kids and their parents to help them better understand what they're getting themselves into.

I hate to see kids blow 3-4 of the best years of their life away just because they wanted to get signed.

[frita]

Why can't we expect both! Lets face it all kids will sign now if you let them, but the parents need some education of what they're getting into.
And yes oldracer we are signing "roster fillers and short term signings" but that is the business and we should expect that if Australian kids are good enough to sign why not have an education part with all and if you use it you do and if not....well don't!
I think we would all agree that 1/2 years is a long time in the development of a young athlete's career and a number of issues can change!
Why not a small "package" given to all U/18's families every year before nationals to explain what you may expect during this period ie: $$$, scouts, agents and education.
Clubs and parents are not equipt enough to deal with these issues in Australia and someone needs to look after the "young" players going overseas.

[bobby]

Couple of points here:
1) you cant really judge the Aussie kids and the imports that have come out here, yes some of the imports might be more advanced when they get here but scouts are trying to project how a kid will be down the track and the import might have already hit his peak so thats why they didnt get signed.

2) I think it would be great for the kids to get a pack but who would put this together, there are not alot of people around with this experiance at Nationals.

3) Parents sometimes think they know best and we all know this is not the case, but I would not reccomend getting an agent here in Aus as they will be little or no help once the player has signed and is based in the states (no offence to any aussie baseball agents).

4) look at the organisation that is trying to sign you, aske around as there will be someone that know about the scout and the organisation. You need to know if they promote from within the org, how many players in your possition are in front of you and if they were drafted what round did they go (this helps as if they have a 1st and 2nd round player in front of you they are prob going to get more game time).

[sanchez2]

I think Josh Spence is a great example of working hard at college and really learning how to play the game. After serving his time at ASU and being drafted by LAA and San Diego he is comfortably holding his own in AA after playing in only 19 games of professional baseball, as well as learning the game you are playing with very high calibre team mates, for example as well as Spence at ASU they had Mike Leake who is been a strong part of the Reds Major League rotation this year.

No offence to any guys who gave it a good shot and signed early, but do you think some of them would have had a longer career if they went to college. Just an example but a guy like Karlsen who played 1 or 2 seasons of rookie ball with the Phillies and struggled to hit, could have made an impact if he had developed another 2+ years in a JC he may have gone a lot further.

I know Moylan struggled to cope with playing, training and catching buses every day in Minor League Baseball as an 18yo, so College is a good wake up call. IMO if you are good enough to sign now you will be good enough to get drafted out of college.

Let’s face it, the parties, and the college girls are a big plus!

[gj]

Lando will second that last bit Sanchez.

[Deleted]

Sadly gj, most JUCO's (and even many 4-year schools) are in relatively small towns, and most college kids are underage. For instance, my JUCO is in a small town of 14,000 adjoining another town of 8,000, and all police do is patrol looking for underage kids drinking. So there isn't much in the way of parties. Most guys I know at JUCO's are in small towns, it just depends on how lenient the cops are there (sadly, Nebraska is a very boring state, and the cops are not lenient).

And I will most likely never sign a professional contract, so for me the experience of JUCO baseball is probably the best I will achieve. I never had the dilemma of "sign or school."

I believe Bobby hit the nail on the head (I can't believe i'm saying this...). It depends on the kid. Some kids can't afford college, and it is a fair bit of coin (unless you hook a full ride somewhere, which is not easy to do from Australia). Most JUCO's only pay for tuition & fees, except for Florida, Texas, Arizona, etc, where they have more money.

But I do believe if you are good enough to sign at 18 you will sign out of college. It depends on whether the kid wants a degree or not really, so it is a good fit for some, but could be a bad fit for others (a kid who doesn't care much for school probably wouldn't care about classes/education and would be better off signing).

[philallen]

This is an interesting subject and one that I feel somewhat aquainted with. Having said that, after representing the Colorado Rockies in Australia for over 15 years, I certainly do not profess to have a cut and dried answer. But I will add a couple of my own comments that are informed and considered. Firstly, the Rockies, and I'm sure this is true of all organizations are not in the business of signing young players as "roster fillers and short term signings" out of Australia as has been suggested in earlier posts. For any club to offer a contract to a young Australian player it has been my experience that the scout recommending the player, and in most cases the cross checker, will have seen a tool or tools that will allow that player to progress to a high level.......if the tools continue to develop. Professional baseball organizations are certainly not in the business of taking young men and discarding them unreasonably before allowing time for those tools to develop and play themselves out. Having said that I fully realise that there is a counter argument to suggest that that has happened on some occassions. Many and varied considerations are taken into account prior to offering any young Australian player a professional contract, but foremost in the mind of any scout will be the self question, does this young man at some time in the future have a chance to play Major League baseball? For if that question is asked and cannot be answered in the affirmative then it would be counter productive to enter into any further discussion. Scouting players, identifying players, projecting players.......is subjective in the extreme, but that is the objective of what scouts and professional organizations do. The reality is that aproximately 6% of all players signed globally to professional contract finally end up with a Big League career. Does that make it wrong to offer a young Australian player, who you believe has a chance, a contract? I could write on this for hours, but would probably bore you all to tears. But I will say this, that any scout who offers a young Australian a professional opportunity to play the game they love, with the possibility of a rewarding & lucrative career has an overriding sense of responsibility to that young man and his family to make an informed decision prior to making that offer. And I know through associating with scouts and front office people from both here and abroad over many years, that that responsibility is taken very seriously by everyone.

Finally I will make this point, and anyone is welcome to dispute this if you feel that it is untrue. Players who are offered a professional contract are offered just that. It is never, in my experience, a scouts position to persuade him to sign a contract whilst trying to disuade him from attending college. Cards are laid on the table, and it is the player and his family's decision which path he is to choose. Whilst some may view this as a rant from a professional baseball perspective, I hope not. The bottom line is that we all, scouts, cross checkers, clubs, parents, friends and the baseball community in general, want what is best for the young men in question. Success at their chosen sport...and in life.

[gj]

I was talking about the college girls Lando. Young good looking Aussie bloke like yourself, talking the talk.

[p26]

gj, lando is very quiet on that front. very disappointing i must say. what is the point of going to college if you don't come back with a ton of good stories to tell your boys back home. anybody would think he actually went over there to play ball or something?

[p26]

BTW, Lando, your coy act is fooling nobody mate. start dishing some dirt.

[Chardy]

School - no question.

Lando is right though, many small towns and not a great deal to do.

Low level Pro ball almost could be considered "churn and burn" whereas going to school you get more of an idea of what's to come in Pro ball. School hopefully also gives you an opportunity to develop a little more maturity to prepare you to play Pro ball.

Most guys drafted out of school tend to also go straight to high A and skip the dreaded "extended spring" and short season teams.

[oldracer]

Phil, I'm sure you and the other scouts in Australia don't set out to sign fillers, my point was do our kids end up that way?? and I think we are getting to the stage where many that were signed 5-6 years ago are treading water and will ultimately either go to indy leagues or back home.
Would or could those kids have gone to school, knowing most of them I would say yes, some certainly would not have been able to afford it and would they all have got drafted if they had gone to school...possibly not.
At early to mid twenties with no baseball and having to live in the real world, hopefully all the signees that get released had school as a contract component providing a starting point for the rest of their lives.
School is expensive, even a full ride is not free and as Lando says, not many states provide education, fees and accomm in their scholarships let alone spending money so a pro contract certainly is attractive
It will be very interesting to see the outcome of all the recent signings, actually it would be a good exercise to plot the average time spent in pro ball out of high school for Australians, anyone got any ideas.

[huezda02]

Having been in the States...played college ball......played with guys who are in the Independent leagues, rehabing Major Leaguers, Minor Leaguers, retired minor leaguers etc... I would say, if possible, go to college.

If a young kid actually has a shot to play in the bigs, then college will not hurt the player. College will provide a healthy platform to develop the young player, standing as a stepping stone to a healthy potential career. It will also be a great way for the young player to get more exposure for themselves, and to the world of baseball.

If a young kid doens't really have a chance to really make an impact, then signing early just derails life. The minor league system chews out players really fast. Unless you are considered a top prospect, the minor league and Indy ball system has no patience. They don't allow you time to adjust and struggle.

For a young kid who has potential and has been approached, my suggestion is, and in most cases will always be, go to college. If you get legitimate interest from a D1 school offering a large scholarship...take it...it will be the best way for you to prepare for a serious career as a pro ball player. If not, find a Juco in a respectable conference (Texas, FL, CA) and play two years there and then move onto a 4 year school. If you have what it takes as a young kid to seriously have a pro future in baseball, these schools will pay your way to play. And they will groom you and prepare you for the Amateur player draft.

The life of a non prospect minor leaguer isnt easy. And even if you are a top 20 round draft pick, your leash can be really short. Beware of jumping into a system for the sake of jumping into a system.

[whynot]

Job security is a big issue in the minor and independent leagues, many small towns cant fund or sustain a team consistently and owners change faster than the rosters.

The big thing in minor leagues is simple your gotta really shine or the gloss is gone , you get a "job " a" role" to fore fill and if you dont then bye bye. You may be required to assist a small town club with other duties related or totally unrelated to your baseball.

Many pro clubs are farm agents and can offer a fast track if your good enough and the role suits you, as a young guy you will not get an education and sadly many clubs will turn and burn over players looking for the next paying draftee for the kicker , they have less concern for your long term welfare than tomorrows show.

You need to be fully aware of the future health issues re break downs and injury due to incomplete ir unsafe mechanics versus a career player (15 plus years) and many a young guy obviously cant answer that question .

If you just want the experience of busing all over the conference the comradeship and lifestyle and get paid for playing then the independent and minor leagues can be a blast and provide an opportunity for you.

The reality is College provides a structured approach with some level of concern for getting things right rather than getting a one off shot , these days the Colleges are audited and scrutinised about athletic scholarships and academic outcomes

This is with a veiw to creating educated productive life skills outside of or in conjunction with baseball this is the biggest change in the last 10 years of College system because players have expectations both sporting and academic

I must say it was fun while it lasted but I wouldnt wont my son going straight to independents or semi pro leagues, ( particularly the religious pro league we arent good enough people lol)

I am not up to date but notice the minor leagues appear more bound to the majors these days and may provide better experience and pathway other than see who sinks or swims on what they bring this week rather than structured future potential

[Goblin]

This article should be compulsory reading for anyone in the position.

thunderbaseball.wordpress.com/2010/08/15/minor-league-baseball-investing-in-the-future/