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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 28, 2012 13:13:14 GMT 10
It used to be my understanding that amateur baseballers did their part for the sport by paying fees to play baseball... in essence, being exactly what their title says, amateur baseballers.
Of course there was others who went above and beyond just paying to play... they coached juniors, umpired, involved themselves with state programs, took roles on committees. In some cases they transcended the sport, single-handedly directing the future success of hundreds of our best players or saving a club from ruin. For these exceptional people we reserved our most treasured admirations... 'Best Clubperson', 'Volunteer of the Year', 'Life Membership'... because they were, well, exceptional.
Has our landscape really changed this much?
Now it seems our amateur basballers must not only pay fees to play baseball, but MUST also coach juniors, umpire, involve themselves with state programs, take roles on committees, work canteens, attend club functions, promote the game into regional areas (at their own added expense), attend national league games, attend games played by other amateur baseballers. We've even had examples of our rights to play being diminished because these other functions are perceived as a greater priority.
And if not, these amateurs risk being accused of not stepping up, not doing enough for the sport, not being willing to support the growth/development/promotion of baseball, of being all talk and not committed. I know, because I've been accused of some of these things myself over the past few weeks.
When did the exceptional become the standard requirement? Is it because our professionals and amatuers mix so closely it's difficult to distinguish the difference? Have we lost a level of support in clubland (our club has less 'grey brigade' than in the past and much falls on younger heads)?
Is this honestly the new expectation on our amateur baseballers? Do we risk driving these people from the sport by over-demanding from them?
Australian sport culture is built around participation... it's something many other countries admire about our structure... is participation still the priority for our amateur players?
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Post by The Joker on Mar 28, 2012 13:35:42 GMT 10
I want to get all ranty here (in aggreeance with you this time Nathan), but don't have time right now. Mr Authentic and I had a similar discussion via DM well over a year ago where I whinged about the lack of volunteers and interest from players and parents in helping out these days. I'll see if I can dig up the good bits.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 14:34:03 GMT 10
Out of the woodwork TJ  Lets see if my views have shifted after 2 'interesting' years in the thick of it. Aside from mulling this (and related matters) all over, and sharing ideas etc herein Nathan, what is the best way forward do you think ? Ive had/used an idea a while ago now that I think worked and that may talk in part to your point/issue Nathan, but Ill let other have a crack at this first. But just re Masters here and now, I think we need to go back to having 'Managers Meetings' well before the Draw and Rules are produced each season that then guides the way we ask BV to help us in administering the sport we play. PS: TJ, the earlier 'Mr' reference offers far too much respect mate ! |
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Post by richunwin on Mar 28, 2012 14:53:55 GMT 10
Nate,
I agree with you in part but I think you are dragging in a couple of different issues to prove your point.
The regional baseball thing I think you are trying to bring up when you say is a different argument to working around the club. That's my first point.
As someone who is a committee I totally agree that it is getting harder and harder to find people to put there hand up to help. I'm not saying that we have the correct formula at Melbourne, far from it but we have taken the direction of offering incentives to players who put there hands up for junior coaching roles. Free baseball is a powerful motivator for some.
The committee thing is a real problem I think. Finding people to put in extra over and above baseball for zero reward is a nightmare. Doing for the love of the jumper as it were doesn't seem to have the same draw as it once did.
We have never forced any player to do anything other than umpire one junior game per season and sometimes not even then, they may get skipped in the rotation. But at no time have we forced players to attend National League games or anything like that. Any club that tries to force players to do that in my humble opinion is asking for trouble.
Rich
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Post by The Joker on Mar 28, 2012 15:03:48 GMT 10
OK, so this is obviously something I am passionate about, and I made a couple of sweeping generalisations in the rant I'm about to post below, so take with a grain of salt. This is an extract from a private DM discussion I had with Authetic back in late 2009. To be clear, I'm agreeing with Nathan here, too much is now asked of the players. Non-playing volunteers in particular are rare as hens teeth and as valuable as gold nuggets. We dont recognise these people well enough. I know someone will ask what I've done since late 2009 to fix some of these problems. Unfortunately it is hard to help run a club and solve world hunger at the same time. I wish I had the time to fix some of these, or even just to give them enough thought. Maybe when I retire. This is also not a problem just in baseball circles, volunteering is a dying artform in many high profile sports. www.themorningbulletin.com.au/story/2011/12/13/volunteers-desert-rugby-league-fitzroy-gracemere/ |
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 28, 2012 16:35:47 GMT 10
Aside from mulling this (and related matters) all over, and sharing ideas etc herein Nathan, what is the best way forward do you think ? Authentic, not really sure if I have a 'best way forward' in regard to this issue, other than for people to stop targeting amateur baseballers with senseless rhetoric about their lack of commitment and support for baseball every time they don't go beyond the minimum expectation of showing up for a game they paid to play. I've thought for a couple of years now that the expectation on amateur players has shifted and I don't really understand why... perhaps it hasn't shifted at all and I've only just become aware of it... I was interested to know what others thought. I agree we have a shortage of volunteers, we have inefficiencies all throughout out sport, but that wasn't my real focus on this issue... I want to know if people truly believe the minimum expectation on our amateur players should be more than just paying and playing, as the rhetoric suggests they do? |
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 28, 2012 17:45:46 GMT 10
Nate, I agree with you in part but I think you are dragging in a couple of different issues to prove your point. The regional baseball thing I think you are trying to bring up when you say is a different argument to working around the club. That's my first point. But Rich, this is the most important point... it's not like we went from one day simply paying and playing for our club to the next being asked to travel to regional areas... this has been a gradual shift in what we think is acceptable. Expectations have increased on players to contribute around their club (Geelong's no different with rosters for umpiring, canteen and assisting at the nationals) as volunteer bases have diminished... as a young players, I was never asked to work in the canteen or rostered to umpire... now it's the norm and as each thing becomes acceptable, the next thing becomes possible. Same goes for the expectations on players from the league... when BV rescheduled games to avoid a clash with Claxton Shield playoffs three years ago, it was unprecedented and was explained as necessary because of the great opportunity Victorian baseball had... since then it's been considered for ABL finals (this year) and regional rounds (prospectively next year)... once it's accepted as okay, how many other times will players be told they're more important as spectators? Last year, BV scheduled games on Australia Day... not in my time as a player or coach do I remember clubs being asked to play on a public holiday... a public holiday earned by players through employment, being given away for what I was told would be a great chance for us to promote baseball. Now we're being asked to consider sending these same players to regional areas to promote baseball. As one thing becomes acceptable, the next thing becomes possible. These are players that pay to play... any enjoyment, esteem, or moderate fame they receive, they've paid for... why is it now expected for these players to be responsible for the promotion of the game? Should they not reasonably expect that by paying to be involved, this already contributes to the promotion of baseball? But at no time have we forced players to attend National League games or anything like that. Any club that tries to force players to do that in my humble opinion is asking for trouble. Glad to hear, but when voices from the ABL, the Aces and other parts of our community talk about how disappointing it is baseball people aren't supporting the National League, does this not imply to our players they should be attending the games? Then when our league cancels or re-schedules games so you can be a spectator, does this not clearly state it's expected of you to attend the game? In further thought to authentic's question of best way forward, on this issue of attending games, perhaps the focus could shift from our players as spectators to drawing people from outside the baseball community... perhaps when the crowds are down, it can be viewed as a failing of the adminstration's promotion, not club baseballers who are already contributing to the sport? |
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Post by frita on Mar 28, 2012 17:47:10 GMT 10
Nate I did post in another thread but I believe the question of 'the best way forward' you are posing here needs serious consideration and is a trickle effect of the poor culture that has infected baseball Australia wide at state level.
Does this become a club issue or something bigger?
Well intentioned 'volunteer's' who work their guts out for a club and get relatively no support until they can't do it anymore and are lost to the sport. (you know! you have them in your own club, it effects people's health).
I have been to presentation night's where people employed full time in this sport win awards, for guess what? Doing their job!
The easiest thing to do is give a volunteer an award to let the know they are appreciated but it is happening less and less.
Is it worth starting a list/thread of what clubs should control and what BV/ABF should control?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 21:36:15 GMT 10
As a dinosaur in the sport, I was fortunate enough to have been involved with a number of summer and winter clubs. At least a couple of those - in Victoria - were very successful in particular eras, although three I can think of are now defunct and another continues to struggle.
If I reflect back over fifty years in the game (as a player, a coach and administrator), I guess that I was lucky (or unlucky, depending on one’s point of view) to have been involved with the clubs that I was.
There was an expectation in the clubs with which I was involved as a younger bloke that playing members would contribute, and would be expected to help with such tasks as umpiring junior games, mentoring kids, attending social functions, occasionally being rostered in canteens, helping out with ground maintenance and the like.
I never had any issue with club members being encouraged – nay, expected - to take on any reasonable role that would enable a club to go about its business and get better at what it did. I still don’t have an issue with that concept, even though I acknowledge that times have changed, priorities have changed. Maybe life has become more complex. Maybe we have allowed it to become more complex.
There is no doubt that the workload on clubs has increased and that the responsibilities that clubs assume have become more varied and more demanding. I don't see that trend being reversed.
There is plenty of work to be done in order to keep any amateur club viable. It requires eternal vigilance to ensure that standards are not slipping and that individuals are not being burnt out through overwork.
Many hands, as they say, make lighter work.
Participation? What does that mean? I do not believe that it is simply paying your fees, buying a uniform, turning up to training and playing in baseball games.
That’s playing baseball, not participation in the complete sense.
A club is like a family. Once you become a part of that club, or that family, I would argue that you have an obligation to do whatever is reasonably possible within your own skill set and your own capabilities to help that club – or that family – to flourish. Surely this is an important message that we need to deliver to young people from a very early age – from when they start playing as T-Ballers or juniors.
Strong clubs – and strong families – are fundamental to a progressive and fulfilled community. Now, more than ever, we need both.
Clubs attract a disparate range of individuals. Some will embrace the concept of engagement, others will not to the same degree. If some people regard playing involvement as the only level of participation at which they wish to be engaged, then so be it, as paying members. That is their prerogative and we need to respect that, although the rewards that they are likely to derive will be considerably less substantial – and less lasting – than those whose sense of participation is more wide-reaching.
People say that decent volunteers and committed club people are hard to find, these days. I don’t know that I agree with that. If we look around at clubs – winter and summer – we still tend to see similar degrees of time commitment and sacrifice being taken on by quality people committed to the “family” cause.
The Baycats are a prime example of a club with a serious work ethic, as Nathan knows better than any of us. But there are plenty more if we care to look. Preston, Melbourne, Sunshine, Essendon, Sandringham are among others who appear to have achieved superb things over the recent summer season - on field and more importantly off field.
Clubs are kept afloat and are on the improve largely through the efforts of a usually small core of individuals committed to the cause.
Yes, we need to be careful that those individuals are not burnt and that they are not out of pocket or in any other way compromised through their club commitment.
No club in its right mind should be seeking to force people to go to ABL games, or to BV finals. That would be silly. But I would argue that a club aspiring to any sort of development – or even simply to its own survival – should be seeking to engage as many of its members (paying or otherwise) in doing their bit within their capacities and resources.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 8:16:49 GMT 10
I couldnt agree more KC and brilliantly well put !
And I like the concept of 'Participation' that you raise but Id add the idea of 'Investment'....in short the more you put into something (your own sporting pursuit and/or the teams or clubs or the sport goals) the more you get out of it.
Its a win/win so long as you are not then taken advantage of by those around you and are appreciated in some small way usually.
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 29, 2012 11:44:06 GMT 10
I never had any issue with club members being encouraged – nay, expected - to take on any reasonable role that would enable a club to go about its business and get better at what it did. KC... As always written with measure and style the likes of which this forum rarely sees... but I can't let your pretty words rest without question... annoying, I know, but... First, I do think my point to starting this thread has been misinterpreted... I agree, most players happily engage in some form of volunteerism beyond just playing (and have done for many years)... I agree, there has always been some level of expectation within clubs to assist in the operation of club business... but where is the line? Is giving up our public holidays enough? Is being used as promotional tools enough? When do we stop being club amateurs, willing to help out where we can, and become apparatus of the sport, responsible to the greater good? Participation? What does that mean? I do not believe that it is simply paying your fees, buying a uniform, turning up to training and playing in baseball games. That’s playing baseball, not participation in the complete sense... Some will embrace the concept of engagement, others will not to the same degree. If some people regard playing involvement as the only level of participation at which they wish to be engaged, then so be it, as paying members. That is their prerogative and we need to respect that... Herein lies my biggest concern... I don't think this prerogative is respected... I thought this was the minimum expectation, but based on the rhetoric I've personally experienced over the past few weeks, it seems I was mistaken... just paying to show up and play isn't respected, even if that's all the particpant wants from the sport. ... although the rewards that they are likely to derive will be considerably less substantial – and less lasting – than those whose sense of participation is more wide-reaching. Your sense of reward is very much the same as mine, but does that mean we can project that on to everyone? To assume someone's sense of reward is not as complete because their 'participation' isn't the same is unfair... could it not be as easily assumed enjoyment (or reward) is diminished where additional responsiblility is unwanted but expected? Clubs are kept afloat and are on the improve largely through the efforts of a usually small core of individuals committed to the cause. Again, I think my initial purpose may have been confused... I wasn't trying to highlight the plight of volunteers or the struggle of clubs in acquiring them, although I readily recognise this is an important issue in all community-based sport. My point was to advocate on behalf of amateur players that I believe are being asked to go way beyond their scope of amateur ballplayer... yes, we agree some amount of volunteerism within their club is accepted, but where is the line of unaccepted?  The idea has been put forward for NEXT SEASON to send amateur baseballers to regional communities to promote the sport... the concept was received with moderate derision, but some circles defended it's merit, suggesting the concept was acceptable to parts of our community. If this concept is acceptable, I wonder, where do we draw the line? Will we soon be a mandated requirement of our players to use a couple of days annual leave each year to go to schools and run promotional clinics? What about each senior player paying the fees of a junior to ensure we're maximising junior participation? Will they be sold to us under the guise of the "greater interests of the sport" and "greater reward from greater participation"? As I've already said, as one thing becomes acceptable the next thing becomes possible. No club in its right mind should be seeking to force people to go to ABL games, or to BV finals. To be clear, I've never suggested any club has ever forced anyone to do anything. However, it was inferred a couple of days ago that because I, and the Baycats players, chose a social gathering over attending the the BV finals, we were hypocritical and failed to support baseball... does this rhetoric not have the capacity to be coersive? When BV cancel or re-schedule games to avoid a clash with Aces games, does this not send a clear message our amatuer participants are more important to the administration as spectators than players? When players are told it's their responsibility to not only pay for the sport to exist, but to actively engage in the operation of the sport, where is the line between amateur and unpaid employee? KC, you and I are cut from the same cloth when it comes to how we view participation in amateur sport... my concern is for those who are not, for those who want to contribute less... I'd hate to think we're sending a message that we rather nothing if they can't do more? |
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 29, 2012 11:52:36 GMT 10
I couldnt agree more KC and brilliantly well put ! And I like the concept of 'Participation' that you raise but Id add the idea of 'Investment'....in short the more you put into something (your own sporting pursuit and/or the teams or clubs or the sport goals) the more you get out of it. Its a win/win so long as you are not then taken advantage of by those around you and are appreciated in some small way usually. authentic, your definition very much reflects my own personal sense of participating in baseball... but should it reflect everyone's? If someone accepts the enjoyment they get from playing is all they want, and they pay for it, is that not enough? And your caveat of not being taken advantage of... is this not a personal line also? Could rostering someone to umpire a junior game not be a reasonable expectation in one's view, and an unfair exploitation of a paid member in another's (keep in mind, at Geelong we roster players on to umpire... I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, or that it's wrong, just using it as an example)? What I don't clearly understand is where is the line? Where do we say, this is not an acceptable expectation of amateur athletes? |
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Post by wyatt33 on Mar 29, 2012 12:22:35 GMT 10
I've been quiet for a while(licking wounds) but this is a good topic of discussion. Hopefully we as members of the baseball community can all get something out of this.
It's not just happening at baseball clubs. I'm support a local 2nd div footy club in the EFL and I can tell you, although participation rates are high, the people that are putting hands up to help, are falling. In an era where it's getting more about money and less about sport, it's probably a byproduct of that attitude. At my footy club, every player that runs out to play in the ones gets paid. It isn't necessarily hundreds of dollars each(although there are players earning good 'pocket money'), it seem that the attitude that 'I'm getting paid so I don't do that stuff' seems to be pervasive. The people that are doing the day to day stuff are the ones that have been doing it for years, with limited new Hellers prepared to join in. The only time I see many of the players really get into raising money, is when it's for a end of season trip, which is disappointing. And because of that, our club has ruled any funds they want to raise for that, has to be done away from the club. Tough stand, bit it's already hard enough to raise money without direct competition. Clearly attitudes have changed towards levels of participation at club level. However I think it's natural for the competitions hierarchy to want as much support as they can muster from the 'faithful', but it's a matter of where you draw a line. Maybe the old adage of charity begins at home, probably applies here. But as members of the baseball community, we also do have a reasponsabilty to promote our game, don't we? It's going to be dn ongoing debate as to who should be the main priority? Clubs have a responsibility to there members, the league to it's clubs, but also the the best interests of the game. The Aces need to be more self supportive, and maybe, with time they will achieve that. Until then, who do they rely on? All of us!
It's massive issue affecting all sports, probably more so a smaller growing sport like ours. There aren't any easy answers, andaybe the more discussion we have the more we can deal with these problems as they arise. How about we try and organize a large meeting or a thinktank, involving all interested parties,(clubs, players, parents, league, aces, sponsors etc) and try and work thru some of the issues at hand. Opening any sort of dialogue is always a good start. And it's not a p&s meeting, it's a meeting with a neutral moderator controlling it. Anything is better than nothing....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 13:09:33 GMT 10
There is some real good stuff already in here as to the best way to run a club, and many clubs out there are no doubt right on to all this. Others with reluctant COM members and overstreched personal maybe dont get a chance to 'do it well' they just manage to do it and keep the club functioning as best they can.
I agree Wyatt that money can get in the road, particularly if you have players on reasonable money coasting (socially etc) and those around them running around pushing raffles and social functions just to pay them (which I observed in previous sports/clubs too). And this is where our sport is at the moment, mainly amateurs doing the best we can aside from paid Coaches (who usually are well underpaid for what they do at many clubs) and some players.
Nathan in terms of my earlier point everyone at a club brings with them their own personal/professional/social/financial etc needs to their particpation in anything much (inc our sport), and for some it is their primary need (i.e. to be a really good baseball player and team mate.....usually our younger guys fit this bill amongst others). For others it is to be a real good parent and role model for kids including their own (see Ex or 'older' players who take on Junior Coaching roles etc) BUT for others baseball is a pure recreational activity that 'just' fits into their busy working/family lives and for them they 'invest' more so (time, money etc) in their son or daughters Auskick participation as a Coach/Manager on the Saturday morning and they see baseball as a bit of fun on a Sat/Sunday/Monday night that they are happy to pay $300-$400 for for 6 months.
For me the secret to running a good club can be found in part in Maslow's 'Heirarchy of Needs' for what its worth !
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Post by rhricho on Mar 29, 2012 14:58:18 GMT 10
I think this is a great discussion and something that needs to be a really important focus point for BV. I don't like to get on here and tell BV how to go about things or to whinge about what they don't do, however adapting to new conditions, processes, market trends etc etc is what all business' I see ATM are just having to do. (especially in the Manufacturing sector that I consult in) BV is no different to them and IMO tough times do lie ahead, continual changes to our current formats are required or they risk losing any grip or control totally. Frita is right - Baseball tragics or Pro's will always want more games and wanna get as much out of the game or their club as possible, but realistically - times are continuously changing and demands on ppl in regular life don't allow volunteers or club personal to commit to such tasks to support these tragic's or Pro's as much as perhaps we all wish we could. One could argue that workloads are getting bigger and we have less time to do them?? perhaps your club has less man power to do such tasks and delegation to multiple ppl within your club or committe just isn't an option??? One or little personal doing multiple jobs?? In the late 80's and early 90's (the good old days!) My dad could support a family of 5 living in Mt Eliza on a regular Sales Rep wage (run of the mill middle class guy, god rest his beautiful soul!) while my mum had 12 years off work - raising 3 kids! I am in a similar situation to my fathers with number 2 coming late June. My wife and I have to work pretty much full time with our little guy in Child care 4 days. Everyone has a story and I love where I am at going forward, however within the last 20-30yr period, things have changed and we all have had to evolve and adapt to go with it or otherwise sink and blame others as some simple do do. My question is, how can BV or any club make things easier for everyday ppl like myself and the next guy? and how can they come up with plans to ensure club's can, pay for things, transfer players, organise umpiring, attract new ppl, perhaps create geographical divisions maybe due to transport issue etc etc - I am not sure I dont get paid to do that job??? IMO - a lot of the above challenges really come back to the 33 game summer season - we all have had a lot of input via another thread on here, however I also am now seeing more major effects of this - with the attempt to integrate the summer guys into the winter comp. Pitchers need a break and dont wanna throw, and well pretty much all the full time summer guys - JUST NEED WEEKS OFF or even the entire winter itself! In the DBA - hats off to Dingley here - but not every club has a talented kid coming back from college for the start of winter that dominates for 9 inns or so each week. Over there - I am sure he would be apart of 5 or so reg starters and be getting his work in an extremely well supported environment. Baseball over there would be like footy is over here, multiple ppl to choose from and them all wanting to play as high as possible with plenty of back up if required. Baseball here is the exact opposite (IMO), malvern for example had 30-35 yr olds going off for them Midweek on a tues? ?? then a regular seppo each Sunday??? I like the seppo situation, however bullpen depth in Victoria really isn't that healthy - esp to support 33 games season IMHO Companies I see are making tough changes and decisions, some are almost risk taking - Other are sitting back complaining about costs or parts going to China and they are simply not look to diversifying with new products or strategies to perhaps give themselves a crack??? Instead they sit back and watch it happen!! Enjoy the social security line, as the next company will NOT be sitting on their hands as they probably wanna survive and use their competitive spirit and kick goals - something I hope the ABF, BV, ACES are always looking at for the good of our sport! Your right Wyatt, clubs do have to attract local ppl and create a good environment, but nobody at any club I've been apart of gets paid to do this and it's a tough slog without a super return for their efforts! I think time and money should be given by BV and the ABF to expand baseball itself into regular or new communities attempting to attract new ppl. Not everyone will like every new decision, but trial and error perhaps is something that must happen in order to see how things work out? It certainly isn't Dire Straights what so eva, however to say things are as good as they were is simply wrong! |
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Post by pirates on Mar 29, 2012 17:51:44 GMT 10
I couldnt agree more KC and brilliantly well put ! And I like the concept of 'Participation' that you raise but Id add the idea of 'Investment'....in short the more you put into something (your own sporting pursuit and/or the teams or clubs or the sport goals) the more you get out of it. Its a win/win so long as you are not then taken advantage of by those around you and are appreciated in some small way usually. authentic, your definition very much reflects my own personal sense of participating in baseball... but should it reflect everyone's? If someone accepts the enjoyment they get from playing is all they want, and they pay for it, is that not enough? And your caveat of not being taken advantage of... is this not a personal line also? Could rostering someone to umpire a junior game not be a reasonable expectation in one's view, and an unfair exploitation of a paid member in another's (keep in mind, at Geelong we roster players on to umpire... I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, or that it's wrong, just using it as an example)? What I don't clearly understand is where is the line? Where do we say, this is not an acceptable expectation of amateur athletes? Ok you would not believe where I'm responding from........ I believe that we are preaching to the converted here, every post is from a devoted baseball individual IMO. I know some of you, some from a distance but i see the level of commitment to our sport but more importantly to your club. I have thought a lot about this subject, by the way I think that every post has a lot of meret. I'll try and keep this short so I might miss some points but you'll get basic points. Why do people get involved with clubs i have my opinion and it's probably a little out there. I wont bore you with those thoughts. In short i think it's about community a gathering of like minder individuals who enjoy our sport it's in our DNA to be part of a social group. That's why it's such a buzz to play and win together and those that don't play contribute to the club because they want to be part of that community spirit. Players are there to play and represent the club but if they don't feel they need to put back to the community they are selfish and would appear to be more about having a what's in it for me attitude. Nobody should be forced to contribute but they are the ones missing out on a rewarding experience. If everyone had this attitude clubs will disappear very quickly. Unfortunately i agree its a growing trend across the community in all sorts of sports and activities. Our club has been around 102 years and I believe that is because members along the way took it upon them selves to make sure the group continued. Some worked harder than others as different times there would have seen greater success than other Times so more members to call upon. yes players pay to play but I know at our club they are heavily subsidized like all other clubs I would think by way of canteen and fund raising activities. So to expect a little contribution by way of coaching umpiring or some other task is not to much to ask, i don't think, but not forced. We are not a gym where you go pay your fees and use the weights and leave. You are putting back into you community. In relation to the national league I strongly believe that if we don't get behind this league we will fumble an opportunity for our future baseballers. So I think we should put the hard yards in to get this off the ground. I agree 100% It wont work relying only on the baseball community but what we need to do as clubs is do our bit to introduce it to people out side of the sport. If each member did that it would go along way to develop the league. I've got some ideas re sponsorship cross over from clubs and the Aces that I believe will help both of us. I've put it forward so we will see what happens. And for the record aueagle30 it was a legit question about why you did not go to the final as I thought it may have been a good opportunity to start setting gaols for next season as a group to see the final being played. Just a question. |
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 29, 2012 21:20:20 GMT 10
At my footy club, every player that runs out to play in the ones gets paid. I'm not sure if this is as big an issue for baseball... I've actually never met a player that's admitted to being paid to play club baseball. I guess it happens, I just don't know if it's prevalent. But as members of the baseball community, we also do have a reasponsabilty to promote our game, don't we? I didn't think so, but it seems perhaps this is a common perception... Perhaps I need to reconsider what to expect from amatuer players... Question... I live in the Geelong community, does that mean I have a responsibility to promote the city, or do I expect my rates to cover the city's promotional activities? How about we try and organize a large meeting or a thinktank, involving all interested parties,(clubs, players, parents, league, aces, sponsors etc) and try and work thru some of the issues at hand. Opening any sort of dialogue is always a good start. And it's not a p&s meeting, it's a meeting with a neutral moderator controlling it. Anything is better than nothing.... I'm pretty sure this was attempted last year by BV and the sessions had to be cancelled because of lack of attendees. Perhaps there was no problems last year??? I agree, although I think it's the club leaders (presidents/managers) that need to sit together and discuss what our agenda should be moving forward... set a clear agenda addressing the needs of the clubs and present it as a single, united message. |
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Post by lovethegame on Mar 29, 2012 22:28:27 GMT 10
Guys, interesting and valid comments by all. I am new to forum but been around for quite a while. One thing that seems to be consistent throughout this thread and others is that it appears as though a lot of people are getting burnt out by the rigors of an all year around commitment and even more time is being expected from all participants of the sport from players, coaches and volunteers.
I too play and volunteer in various capacities in both summer and winter. In my opinion the gaps between summer and winter are not big enough. We are planning and training for winter when the summer season is still on and vice versa. There is also very little time to relax over the Xmas break for a lot of people with Nationals & ABL etc.
A radical (and no doubt controversial) suggestion would be to slightly expand the time (not necessarily number of games) of the summer season by a week or two on each end and scrap the winter competition. This would allow for a bigger break mid-year for Nationals and ABL commitments putting less of a strain on teams during the January period.
The winter period will not be completely without baseball though. I would suggest that the dying Provincial tournaments could be revamped and would more popular. With the current long seasons most people are ready for a break over Queens Birthday. I would think that by having a bit of a break prior a lot of people would be looking forward to playing by Queens Birthday. You would send higher quality teams and we might even see teams train prior to the tournament. This could be a time to showcase the sport to the regional areas.
We can still run a couple of T-ball clinics and would still have the junior regional tournaments for which they will obviously train for. BV should also better promote the touring Kangaroos teams it sends overseas. I know that a lot of the older kids are now taking the winter off to concentrate on studies and there also seems to be more and more going to the MLB Academy.
I also say that summer teams would commence pre-season training earlier and the various volunteers would have more time to better prepare for the coming season.
I know that the winter only clubs will not like this and I do not have a ready answer. Perhaps they could merge with summer clubs (examples – Westgarth/Fitzroy and Forest Hill/Blackburn) or perhaps merge with other winter clubs to enter a summer team or enter a team on their own.
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 29, 2012 22:36:05 GMT 10
IMO - a lot of the above challenges really come back to the 33 game summer season - Pitchers need a break and dont wanna throw, and well pretty much all the full time summer guys - JUST NEED WEEKS OFF or even the entire winter itself! rhricho, sorry for picking out one thing... there was a lot going on in there and I wasn't quite sure what to make of all of it... but, this stood out to me... I posed the question what is the minimum expectation on our amateur athletes. I explained I believed it was okay for the minimum expectation to be 'pay and play', although I agreed most clubs have a culture that encourages players to volunteer and most do. I've railed strongly against the ideas of using club members as default employees and taking away players opportunities to play. The discussion has also addressed the struggle of clubs to manage with diminishing volunteer bases... and you've determined these "challenges come back to the 33 game season"... I guess less games would mean players were free to volunteer more, promote the game more, watch the Aces more... but not the thing they all willingly pay their money to do, play more... okay, let's say you're right, what number of games would fix these issues? |
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 29, 2012 23:09:32 GMT 10
In short i think it's about community a gathering of like minder individuals who enjoy our sport it's in our DNA to be part of a social group. With you here... Players are there to play and represent the club but if they don't feel they need to put back to the community they are selfish and would appear to be more about having a what's in it for me attitude. Nobody should be forced to contribute but they are the ones missing out on a rewarding experience. ... but lost me here... sorry, I just can't accept that someone who's only interest is to SHOW UP EVERY WEEK to play and PAY MONEY INTO THE SPORT can be considered selfish. And again, shouldn't the person seeking the experience be the only judge of it's reward? yes players pay to play but I know at our club they are heavily subsidized like all other clubs I would think by way of canteen and fund raising activities. So to expect a little contribution by way of coaching umpiring or some other task is not to much to ask, i don't think, but not forced... You are putting back into you community. This is a really solid point and I agree completely... due to our fundraising activities over the past few years, we've maintained a stable fee structrue... in return, we've asked players to contribute around the club... but it does lead to another question... Would amatuer players pay higher fees to improve the sport and reduce their 'responsibility' to the greater interests of the sport? At a guess, there's 1000 registered baseballers in Victoria. If BV added a levy of $30/season per person, this would generate an additional $30,000. I can develop this further, but for now, an idea... And for the record aueagle30 it was a legit question about why you did not go to the final as I thought it may have been a good opportunity to start setting gaols for next season as a group to see the final being played. Just a question. Let's check the tape... Let me ask why you would not have been there with the team and watch the final as a group. Everyone talks about supporting the game but not all step up. For the record, it wasn't a "legit question" because it didn't end with one of these '?', but you did have every right to ask it. That said, I'm struggling to see where the inference is to using it as an opportunity to prepare for next season... it pretty clearly states that we talk about supporting the game (since 'everyone' would include us), and clearly infers we're part of the hypocritical group not stepping up... please don't let yourself down by covering your tracks with BS... heck, it's generated quite a debate... but maybe next time you can ask a question without appending the negative assumption. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 7:38:21 GMT 10
Certainly outside of the box that idea lovethegame. I think for most players who play 16-18 game seasons (ie no finals) the break is fine...maybe even too long when you include the Chrissy break as well. Biggest problem in your idea for me is the Weather problems in the middle of the year and the fact that many enjoy playing at two clubs over two different seasons and the loss of fantastic Winter clubs that would occur with your idea.
Nate, I am always interested in your input and agree with much of what you say but when you get pedantic about the absence of a '?' in others posts I start to tune out.
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Post by rhricho on Mar 30, 2012 9:38:24 GMT 10
I gotta admit being a bit busy during the day and a little family I kinda glance over most of what written here and write my posts rather quick, hence why they read a little difficult or not that much clarity, anyway I hope you ref more about my content amount. It my post length otherwise that would be serious pot/kettle black thing there!!  To quailfy it more simple - I think BV need to look at the comp structure differently and alter things like no. Of games, junior reqs etc etc to lure again more players and ppl back around baseball again. They need to change and diversify as a business to see our game grow - IMO my ref was that's what other business's are having to do ATM to either grow or survive I was also highlighting the diff to when i was a kid and the cost of living with perhaps less pressure on families than compared to now, more time and dollars and time back then allowed for more social/sporting options in your life?? Regarding the 33 game situation - I think 27-28 games is more of an option, but mainly from a bullpen Perspective?? It's easy for 2nd position players to suggest pitchers just need to suck it up ( am not saying that's what has been said here ) but arms are not Made of rubber so protecting what we have, especially with sufficient break inbetween is vital Perhaps (just some ideas that's all, not gospel or without some issue on this) going back to the qualifying system without midweeks before Xmas?? East / west division for geographical / travel reasons?? Say plenty rd the division divider and each team plays each team once to form the reg div1 div2 format from there. Midweeks go to wed Or thurs night but finish earlier than the likes of last week?? I like what someone else put forward of the east v west midweek comp, I'd say many who can and want to would love that jersey in their bag - its all ideas for the pos of our game but to me and Others I've chatted to, the current formula's just aren't growing our game and this is a real concern. This is again prob badly written as I have kinda rushed it again, I also hope it doesnt seem that long winded for the precious ppl that don't like long posts, but I see this as a really important topic for the good Of baseball Going forward |
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Post by rhricho on Mar 30, 2012 9:44:00 GMT 10
Sorry my bad rushed from an iphOne with predictive text and sentencing, 1st sentence makes no sense at all, hope u understand sOme of what I've postEd but me and my fat fingers have run out of time
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 30, 2012 10:30:06 GMT 10
Nate, I am always interested in your input and agree with much of what you say but when you get pedantic about the absence of a '?' in others posts I start to tune out. Apologies authentic (and pirates)... the comment was intended as a tongue-in-cheek aside and was meant as only a light-hearted poke... d**n computers and mobiles just don't do my sense of humour justice! I assure you I'm here for the debate, not to judge others grammer, spelling or intellect. |
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 30, 2012 11:01:16 GMT 10
I hope you ref more about my content amount. It my post length otherwise that would be serious pot/kettle black thing there!! Please rhricho, let's not make this racial... let's say the pot agreed to call the kettle whatever colour he self-identified as... And no, I'm fine with your length, it was just your delivery was a little erratic... um... queue inapproriate comment about who said what. To quailfy it more simple - I think BV need to look at the comp structure differently and alter things... Agreed, but I think all baseball, from the ABF down, need to reassess how we structure our sport... Questions need to be asked... why must we maintain two seasons when cricket doesn't, football doesn't?... why are our season structured to prohibit players from enjoying an off-season?... why do we maintain a structure that prohibits our players from implementing proper training phases?... why are our elite junior tournaments mid-season and does this allow for the best preparation? Most elite-level coaches concur our structure can be improved in relation to improving these ideals... but change takes time, so I'm prepared to patient. Regarding the 33 game situation - I think 27-28 games is more of an option, but mainly from a bullpen Perspective?? It's easy for 2nd position players to suggest pitchers just need to suck it up ( am not saying that's what has been said here ) but arms are not Made of rubber so protecting what we have, especially with sufficient break inbetween is vital This debate was played out last season ad nauseum... from a Div 1 manager's perspective, an additional six games doesn't make that much difference... we essentially replace six practices, and the playoffs have been shortened by a week. In fact, I've found more games has given us more freedom to allow players days off... more games, more grace (how... check the Div 1 1st's-4th's ladders... check the win % of the teams that finished 4th... all about the same... but because of the additional 12 games, the 1st's team could lose around double the games and finish 4th... single losses have less impact the more games you play)... when we felt the necessity this year, we rested players (literally told them to take the day off and go spend time with family or whatever else they wanted)... We've taken this approach for the past three years and our player turnover has been lower than at any other point in the past 10 years. The reality is, any gain that might be achieved from reducing the number of games will be minimal and at the expense of people playing baseball... the sport needs bigger changes, not band-aids. |
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Post by aueagle30 on Mar 30, 2012 11:23:21 GMT 10
A radical (and no doubt controversial) suggestion would be to slightly expand the time (not necessarily number of games) of the summer season by a week or two on each end and scrap the winter competition. LTG, this past season (for teams not in playoffs) lasted 24 weeks (21 for 2nd's-4th's)... our club started our pre-season in August, so add another eight weeks... that's over 30 weeks! I can't agree with the idea of lengthening the season, but I think you're spot on about creating space for people to have time off. I'd rather see a shortening of the season and a chance for people to actually have an off-season (I have players in their early 20's that haven't had an off-season since T-ball!!!). During my summer breaks in the US, I played in an amateur league in Flint, Michigan... we used to play 40 games in 10 weeks (plus tournaments on weekends)... not saying we should take on that schedule, but surely we could work out a way to cut the middle??? There would be a number of ways the restructure can look, but I think providing players and administrators with appropriate time away from baseball is paramount. |
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Post by lovethegame on Mar 30, 2012 16:47:31 GMT 10
Aueagle30, I agree time away is paramount. If you think about it everthing is overlapping from end of winter to start of summer to ABL to Nationals to end of summer to start of winter to academy to provincials to Kangaroo squads to end of winter and all over again. Did I forget anything? Somewhere you have to find time for work, school etc. Something has to give.
Correct me if I am wrong but does WA not have a winter comp? They seem to do okay on the national stage.
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Post by frita on Mar 31, 2012 8:59:42 GMT 10
I think the topic is important and this quote from aueagle30 caught my eye!
"but I think all baseball, from the ABF down, need to reassess how we structure our sport... Questions need to be asked"
The first thing we must do is foster a relationship where if a question is asked the baseball public can be confident of getting an answer!
In around 4 years of this forum now and thousands of posts, how many questions have been answered?
The simple answer to that is NONE!
lovethegame, You'd think when BV officials where in Perth/WA for the recent ABL championship's on YOUR clubs dollar they might have asked that question!
I would not hold my breath for an answer!
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Post by lovethegame on Apr 1, 2012 0:59:29 GMT 10
Frita, I agree. Also BV have had nunerous trips to the US with the Kangaroos squad. Did they study and learn anythinng or just enjouy a trip away on our dollar? There is a lot to learn from the way others go about things and BV seem to not learn from them. The wheel does not need to be reinvented.
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Post by eckersley43 on Apr 1, 2012 21:21:47 GMT 10
aueagle..I am glad you are not judging others "grammer" (sic) or did you mean grammar!
Now that's just my sense of humor.
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