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Post by The Puma on Feb 20, 2012 16:02:46 GMT 10
Rhricho, you never sent me a pm so I'm not sure how I got into your little rant here. I guess I'm just stalking you again.
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Post by barb05 on Feb 20, 2012 17:20:34 GMT 10
Wyatt, I'll give you this... You are entertaining.
Like a monkey drinking its own wee.
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Post by behindthedish on Feb 20, 2012 20:18:19 GMT 10
Where you have two Div 2 teams playoff in the GF, who do not meet the junior criteria, perhaps BV could introduce a round robin playoff between these two teams and the two bottom teams in Div 1, for promotion/relegation in these circumstances. Each team plays each other and the 2 teams with the most/equal wins, runs for/against are promoted. These games could be played over a week, testing all teams with player depth and the right to be promoted in these circumstances.
P26, it is not called "junior investment", it is called 20 years of jnr pgm passion/vision and hard yakka.
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Post by barb05 on Feb 20, 2012 20:28:21 GMT 10
Btd. When will the these teams play their last game of the season? Anzac day? How will they afford to hold into the mandatory innings eating seppo until then?
This exact plan was part of the initial 33 game proposal by dihmwitt who had spent 2 years planning the change and couldn't tell me when the last game would be played.
There has to be a line in the sand, and some clubs will always feel hard done by.
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Post by p26 on Feb 20, 2012 20:39:13 GMT 10
P26, it is not called "junior investment", it is called 20 years of jnr pgm passion/vision and hard yakka. Geez btd, I give you some credit and you still tell me I'm wrong. Tough crowd.
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Post by Chilli Wil on Feb 20, 2012 20:48:56 GMT 10
Interesting discussion. Makes me think about the whole competition structure, and now the ABL is back in full swing, should we look at how Div 1 and Div 2 are put together? When does the current system come under review again? Obviously next season should be set, but the year after you could look at changing things up.
Something that I have thought about was reverting to 10 teams in Div 1, and having 2 8 team Div 2's, split on the results of the year prior (odd placed teams in Div a, even placed teams in Div b). Teams in Div 2 play everyone in their own division twice, and play everyone in the other division once for 22 games. 1st division goes back to 27 games.
Just a thought.
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Post by behindthedish on Feb 20, 2012 20:53:31 GMT 10
Barbie, what I meant to say, is in this circumstance the two Div 2 teams could play for promotion instead of the pennant. You could play double headers on Tuesday/Thursday/Sat and Sun if required, in line with other Division finals.
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Post by wyatt33 on Feb 20, 2012 21:14:05 GMT 10
No puma he pm'd me after I called him a peanut.....I didn't respond because...well I was right!
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Post by wyatt33 on Feb 20, 2012 21:15:29 GMT 10
Hey I didn't mention, I've got a book coming out' How to make friends and influence baseball people'. Expect it to sell fast......
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Post by larry42 on Feb 20, 2012 23:03:18 GMT 10
Wyatt Why would you believe the comment below would happen and what age group are you referring to?
Given the opportunity to play div 1, I'd suggest that we might be able to attract a few more kids that might be tossing up between us or berwick or even chose us instead of wandering over to high st rd. It happens a lot, trust me.
I'm not having a dig. I think what Mulgrave have been able to do over the last couple of seasons has been terrific. I played against the Rebels over many years when Port and Mulg battled it out, and the on field success has risen sharply. I know you are passionate about your club, but i don't believe you deserve the chance based on what it may or may not do for your club.
For the record, i don't believe the junior criteria should be what it is for clubs wanting to play Div 1. But it is what it is and i cannot see it changing in the near future, although it has more chance of changing with BV now than it did when the old pennant committee ruled the roost. For the sport we are its excessive imo. Success within the senior ranks should not be so heavily reliant on how many junior teams a club can put on the field.
From a junior perspective my family get to see both ends of the spectrum literally. While i still have an off field part to play with the Port Phillip Juniors (Port/Stk) i have also been coaching with my kids at Waverley going in to the 5th year now. As a Port Phillip junior director i am also envious of the Waverley program as it is a great program and a great baseball environment. I'm envious of the participation numbers, i'm envious of the high level coaches that turn up week after week and volunteer their time with no fanfare, and i'm envious of the hardwork that a number of people put in to make games days run so smooth. I'm also envious of the baseball culture which is what we at Port Phillip are trying to encourage, but without success at this point.
As it sits right now i feel sorry for the St.Kilda BC. Last season StK were only a couple of wins away from being in a position to play off for D2 and although dropped off slightly this year are still a force in D2 when on. With the current agreement in place we would need to have 12 junior teams registered as PM and StK share the teams on the field. All we can do is continue to drive away at recruitng and trying to retain.
Good luck to all those hard working guys/gals at all clubs who continue to work their butts off to bring the game to the kids. One thing too, languishing junior programs are not always because people are lazy and dont give a sh$t.
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target
Junior Member
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Post by target on Feb 21, 2012 5:23:03 GMT 10
Larry, that is a very good question. Over to you Wyatt.
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Post by wyatt33 on Feb 21, 2012 10:11:12 GMT 10
I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I think my message has been missed. Is it good for the league if there is no relegating or promotion, hence the possibility of some clubs that do fit the criteria, but without making the promotion stage, maybe they will start to decline and their juniors might dissapear. Also how good can it be for a team that has been at the bottom all year, and maybe the idea of consolidating and making a run at some success in 2nd div, and then going into first div, prepared better for another tilt, instead of spending a couple of seasons in the cellar, and then maybe losing all your good players, then when delegation does come, they're stuffed? I just think that because a club doesn't have 50 tee ballers(which we are endeavoring to achieve)and because we don't have a couple of teams playing in a midweek centre(which we are also endeavoring to achieve) that the senior club, which at this stage, is on track to achieve a possible grand final spot, could be punished! Is that fair? Is it right that Ash and the guys, that have been clearly the best team all year, should face the likely hood, that they won't get an opportunity to challenge thselves against the best base alleys in the state? I'm not sure about that. I'm not going to say they'll be a force on first div, but I think the players have earnt the right to at lest test themselves against the best. That is the main crux of my dhole argument. Anyway, I've had enough of trying to appeal to the masses(and rhricho) for common sense and a little bit of leniency towards some clubs, but alas it's not to be. On that note I'll leave it alone for the moment. We've got finals this weekend in the lower grades, so we should be concentrating on that. Peace out.....Damo!
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Post by barb05 on Feb 21, 2012 21:38:15 GMT 10
Wyatt, that's possibly the most well thought out post you've made. Why couldn't you just say that at the start?
Btd... It'd be a tragedy to take away a div2 GF. The BIG GAME is such an important part of the season for everyone.
33 games were brought about in a bid to improve the quality of the sport in vic by playing more games. I believe it only improved the quality of the league due to the imports that most clubs felt they needed to get to help soak up innings, and those imports have now made the Aces more competitive... Not really the way people expected vic baseball to get better and more competitive at national level. At least we probably could put a $ figure on what the aces success this year cost the clubs whose imports were so nonchalantly used up (either way, hats off to the aces, especially the local boys - certainly no disrespect to them and what they achieved this season)
From what I've seen and experienced, the quality of div1 overall has declined in the last three 33 game seasons... Some clubs have flourished, others have struggled... More so now than ever.
I feel we should go back to 10 div1, 8 div2 and 8 div3 teams (or there-abouts) like before, this review was promised by the board after 2 seasons of 33 games.
But unfortunately if you ask the bottom 8 clubs in div2 if they want to back to div3, they'll say probably say "No" and asking the top 2 clubs if they want to stay in div2 they'll prob say "No". If a junior criteria is then put in place for div2 like before mark another couple of clubs to say "No"... It's a tough spot, when there are effectively 12 clubs from 25 who I see would already say no... One more for a majority.
As someone who has played and in the old "redraw" days, then the 27 game format, and now the 33 game, I think the best was the 27 from a competition perspective as well as; training turnout #s, seniors coaching juniors, season planning and admin, ground hire, replaying washouts, players fees, player injuries and most importantly, Supporter attendance.
None of these have improved with the 33 game season in a way that relates to success at club level, and I'm yet to see evidence otherwise across the board.
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Post by strikezone on Feb 22, 2012 11:45:25 GMT 10
Well said barb05. I have spoken to many who agree with you from all spects of the game. It seems from these discussions that it is the early mid week games that cause the biggest problems, for the reasons you have covered. Plus the OH&S type issue of people rushing to these games and the possible consequensce of trafffic accidents and also injuries resulting from insufficient warm up. BV msut be mindful of this as one day it could bite them on the bum. Coupled with the fact often teams are just under manned due to the work commitments of players. Make these mid weekers a 2 hour game or 7 innnings game staerting at 7.45 or 8pm, only one game per night. Resulting in a sensible start and finish time.
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Post by wyatt33 on Feb 22, 2012 14:07:49 GMT 10
I actualy think that baseall will be better in the long run, for more games played per season. Eventually players and clubs will come to terms with some of the disadvantages(mid week vs work, etc), as more players will be exposed to more game time they mightnt have seen earlier. This surely would only improve these players in the long run. As well it's an opportunity to get more kids thru playing senior baseball.
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Post by behindthedish on Feb 22, 2012 16:50:40 GMT 10
Barbie, I did say "under these circumstances", where you could put the onus back onto the two Div 2 clubs to playoff for the BIG GAME, or if they were fair dinkum about promotion, give them an alternative to participate in a 4 team round robin.
I don't agree with you that 33 games is too much baseball, infact, it's a simple fact of life that if you want to be better at something you enjoy then you need to do more if it and that equates to more games. If the pressure of too many games is too much. then it might be time to play less games in other/lower divisions. Just look at the Perth competition, they play a lot of games in their regular season and in recent years they have become the benchmark of baseball within our country - including junior nationals. I also don't agree that our competition has become weaker, infact it has become stronger, especially the quality of pitching with the influx of imports, which I am not a fan of, as it does not portray the true strength or depth of clubs being able to stand on their own two feet in the premier division - or perhaps you mean that some palyers are becoming older and that the young emerging players are not quite up to the expectation of your standard - they will eventually. Anyway, clubs that have and have had good strong junior programs will prosper, like Geelong, Essendon, Melbourne & Waverley (who incidentally are the top 4 teams in Div 1) and others who don't will flounder - that is another simple fact of life.
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Post by barb05 on Feb 23, 2012 10:11:14 GMT 10
When did Melbourne have a strong junior program?
You must be older than me.
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Post by wyatt33 on Feb 23, 2012 11:16:36 GMT 10
Pretty good a couple of years back, when Hondo was coaching. Lots of their own kids running around in their ones and twos I thought.
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Post by behindthedish on Feb 23, 2012 12:26:13 GMT 10
Ahh Barbie, shame on you not knowing that the Melbourne juniors of 2006 - 2010, were State Junior Champions at U14 & U16, with a number of them playing representative ball too including VIS, maybe Timmy or Marshy can fill in you with details. I think Wyatt has hit the nail on the head.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 14:09:16 GMT 10
Ahh Barbie, shame on you not knowing that the Melbourne juniors of 2006 - 2010, were State Junior Champions at U14 & U16, with a number of them playing representative ball too including VIS, maybe Timmy or Marshy can fill in you with details. I think Wyatt has hit the nail on the head. Pumping your own tires up there Hondo?
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Post by masters on Feb 23, 2012 14:39:32 GMT 10
when does one group of kids all the same age going through the age groups together make a junior program what has Melb had since
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Post by wyatt33 on Feb 23, 2012 15:38:20 GMT 10
Does it matter? Unless it's waverleys constant junior success, then there wouldn't be too many clubs have had continued ongoing success at junior levels. Saying that, I've never really had anything to do with Geelong or essendon. I assume they've had reasonable success over the years.
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