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Post by southside on Sept 22, 2008 14:11:56 GMT 10
Here's a thought on this thread. Chards, I'll give you $100 to pitch against Butterball's team in a red nose and rainbow wig. Sure, people would then make you and me 'evil' for having paid/get paid for playing a game of baseball, but maybe then we'll all have a laugh.
I reckon it'd be good for the game.
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Post by Chardy on Sept 22, 2008 15:43:53 GMT 10
who is "butterball" and who does he play for?
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Post by 350lifetime on Sept 22, 2008 15:47:19 GMT 10
I don't think Butterball plays anymore, he's too busy working out new ways to insult you Cha.
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Post by Chardy on Sept 22, 2008 16:27:57 GMT 10
and eating by the sounds of things???
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Post by wombat on Sept 23, 2008 0:05:00 GMT 10
The problem with paying and poaching players is that it is very disheartening for lower division clubs who have set goals on how to build a division one club by putting time, effort, infrastructure and money into junior development only to see these players lured away prematurely by division one clubs. When I was at Upwey in Juniors we were a struggling Division 2 club. Through vigilance against poaching and arguably one the top 2 junior programs at the time the club managed to become one of the powerhouses of Division 1. I know that Upwey assisted all its state and national juniors with fundraising to assist with trips, so therefore the club felt that these players owed them with service back to the club. I disagree it should be free for all and anyone should be able to play with who they want. Clubs who put time and effort into building a junior program should be rewarded with the dividends at the end, at least until those players have rewarded the time and effort put in by the volunteers who run these clubs
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Post by Ace on Sept 23, 2008 0:10:40 GMT 10
Ferg's transfer system proposal thread offers a potential solution to the poaching of players...
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Post by wombat on Sept 23, 2008 0:21:12 GMT 10
Point taken with the transfer system, but it will (obviously not on the same scale though) end up like the English Premier League, where you have a handful of top clubs all cashed up paying transfer fees for the top players. I think in the past ten years there have been 3 different teams win the premier league, in the VBA there have been at least 5 I can think of. I think a transfer system will hinder rather than help struggling clubs and create less eveness in the comp
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Post by p26 on Sept 23, 2008 0:22:47 GMT 10
Agree with you Wombat, but Upwey also were able to hold on to a lot of those juniors it fostered despite offers of poaching. If a club does it properly, has the right atmosphere, develops players, gives them opportunities and plays in div 1 then more often than not, the players will hang around.
I'm not sure why Upwey ended up back in div 2 though. that happened whilst I was on hiatus, but is it because their players were poached with lures of money? I struggle to think of players lured away with cash (apart from Huber, but that doesn't count obviously), but then again I missed a few years so could be wrong.
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Post by Ace on Sept 23, 2008 0:27:35 GMT 10
You are right about the EPL. However these 'rich' super clubs have fuelled higher transfer fees for players who are really not worth the money.
This allows clubs like Everton (after receiving 30 million pounds for one Wayne Rooney...a once youth player) to invest in a balanced squad that that challenges for the top half of the table. The premier league, despite Man U, Chelsea and a***nal (with a much smaller budget...investing in young players rather than ready made galacticos) dominating, the rest of the top 10 is a guess each year.
The MLB is a better example - the rich clubs pay a tax on a high pay roll, and revenue is shared with small market clubs - the transfer system allows small clubs to gain a small amount for their input into a player.
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Post by wombat on Sept 23, 2008 0:28:05 GMT 10
I think unfortunately it was mistreatment of senior players. There was a great atmosphere at this club, but unfortunately there was lack of respect for senior players.
When the junior program was first up and running Upwey was a struggling Div 2 club, and had to fight off clubs trying to poach juniors.
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Post by p26 on Sept 23, 2008 0:33:58 GMT 10
Yeah but they managed to do it and held on to a pretty substantial number of talented juniors that came through their ranks. This is exactly because there was a great atmosphere there. The young guys got their opportunities. They were developed. The facilities were great.
Like I've said a few times, if a club gets all these things right and can see themselves staying in div 1 then they won't lose players despite money getting thrown around. Upwey is the perfect example of that.
Upwey's return to div 2, based on what you said above, was nothing to do with poaching and paying players.
I know there's a lot of clubs saying that they en up where they are because everybody steals their players. Having played against some of these teams (I'm not going to name them), I wouldn't play at them as an outsider, even if they were div 1 and they were poaching me (not saying they would). Why? Because there's no atmosphere, bad facilities, average coaching staff. These things are more important to 90% of players than getting paid or having fees waived.
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Post by p26 on Sept 23, 2008 0:36:37 GMT 10
BTW, before I get tarred with the Chardy brush, I'm more than well enough aware that the likelihood of me getting poached by any club at any level at age 28 after a shoulder reco is just as likely as Ferg laying down a bunt mid-clap. That wasn't the point of my above post.
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Post by wombat on Sept 23, 2008 0:38:42 GMT 10
I guess my concern is that baseball does not have your participation rates of footy, cricket, soccer or basketball, so when volunteers from clubs put in the time and effort to help develop junior players with an eye to improve the clubs status, money does not help as elite players are very hard to find, although I agree it is better than nothing. But the other worry is that then these successful junior programs will just become feeders for division one clubs who have no junior programs. Maybe that is the solution that we have seperate junior and senior clubs so once the players go into senior level it is almost like a draft situation and the successful club pays a fee for the player to junior club
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Post by p26 on Sept 23, 2008 0:40:25 GMT 10
Funny you should say that. I was thinking the same thing, but thought the issue of senior clubs aligning with junior would be an issue. The draft system fixes that altogether. Nice.
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Post by southside on Sept 23, 2008 9:39:47 GMT 10
A little thing called ABL had a lot to do with keeping player movement to minimal. ABL was an elite level of the sport where even the Div2 and 3 star players can go and play at the highest level, but still come back to their roots on weekends. Would the top line of players have stayed in Div 2 if it wasn't for ABL? With the current structure having been in place for 10 years (no ABL), it's little wonder that the romance of staying at one club for your entire career has also worn off. Players want to play at the highest level, the only way to currently do that is to change to a Div 1 club. Without a higher level to compete at, there's no way the player pilgrimage will stop.
Wombat, as for UFTG, a team of that era with players like C & B Hubbard, S & Wom Ratcliffe, A & B Utting, S & H Chin, Chapman, Jenkins, Nakamura, and both L & S Hogan for a time, remind me again why they were in Div 2?? Little wonder when they did pull their fingers out that they won a few flags (sure the team did change a bit... but the core guys were the same).
If the league had any nuts and half a stubbie of wisdom, it'd create it's own elite level of (let's just say) 4 teams either regionally selected, or even created as a draft type arrangement at the start of the season (with selections/updates - not trades, available throughout the season to cope with injuries claxton etc). These 4 teams could then play off throughout the season in their own elite league. This would keep the number of league games down, create an opportunity for players in lower divisions to still compete at the highest level while maintaining club loyalty, and more-over, they guys that want to play more games at a higher level have the chance to do it. Honestly, this is not tough to set up and get happenning. Most clubs would stick their hand up for their ground for either midweek twilight or saturday matches. Players can nominate into the draft and if they're good enough, get selected. The grounds could be alternated to share the profits from bbqs and bar, increasing cash flow within the local clubs.
Do we really have to wait for all the states to get their act together in order to take the credit for the NEW ABL? I'm sure a sponsor for the elite league could be sourced, Geoff Pearce owns the ABL title and pumps $100k into the VBA only to get incompetence and disorganisation from year to year (refer last years Claxton shield debacle). How long before people who put money into the league say "enough is enough" and the funds dry up.
Bit of a rant, but relative to this thread. There's no quick fix, find the root cause of the problem and fix it in the best way for the players. Provide a solution, not an excuse.
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Post by p26 on Sept 23, 2008 10:20:31 GMT 10
southside, brilliant idea. Something similar was floated at an "ideas night" at the Bayview a couple of years ago when that Tennis bloke that was CEO for a while took over. I think it had ther general support of pretty much everybody in the room. It also stops guys who love playing top level baseball every sunday from being excluded due to difficulties with night games as your standard league just reverts to playing sundays. Everybody wins.
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21
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by 21 on Sept 23, 2008 10:44:54 GMT 10
Some really good points made here. With regards to what the wombat was saying, what about the Div 3 club that, as you are saying, puts in the time and energy to teach these young men how to play our game only to have a Div 1 ( and it only seems to be Div 1 clubs ) come along and tell what a great world it is up in Div 1 and the Div 3 club loses these young players.. back to the drawing board to find these youngsters, teach them how to play and here we go again......There needs to be an easier way....Maybe after you finish juniors, you are to spend at least 5 years as a senior player with that club..You will not only get experience as a senior player, you will give your self a chance to get a little bigger and be able to walk into a Divvy 1 club..After all, i dont think we as baseballers mature until our mid 20's..also, it gives the club you were a junior at, a chance to build a fondation that may or may not get your club to Divvy 1. To many clubs,( well not to many, just a few that i have heard of ) go and actively seek young up and coming players from these div 3 clubs to help them with there stocks...that is the main thing i think sh-ts people...Maybe another way is that you can only transfer from the div you are playing in to the same Div or up 1 level..I know they sound a little far fetched but it is just an idea..Also, in this day and age, if you are a good player in Div 3, you are still going to get looked at...everyone knows when a good player comes along..
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Post by greatwhitehope on Sept 23, 2008 12:19:26 GMT 10
Some really good points made here. With regards to what the wombat was saying, what about the Div 3 club that, as you are saying, puts in the time and energy to teach these young men how to play our game only to have a Div 1 ( and it only seems to be Div 1 clubs ) come along and tell what a great world it is up in Div 1 and the Div 3 club loses these young players.. back to the drawing board to find these youngsters, teach them how to play and here we go again......There needs to be an easier way....Maybe after you finish juniors, you are to spend at least 5 years as a senior player with that club..You will not only get experience as a senior player, you will give your self a chance to get a little bigger and be able to walk into a Divvy 1 club..After all, i dont think we as baseballers mature until our mid 20's..also, it gives the club you were a junior at, a chance to build a fondation that may or may not get your club to Divvy 1. To many clubs,( well not to many, just a few that i have heard of ) go and actively seek young up and coming players from these div 3 clubs to help them with there stocks...that is the main thing i think sh-ts people...Maybe another way is that you can only transfer from the div you are playing in to the same Div or up 1 level..I know they sound a little far fetched but it is just an idea..Also, in this day and age, if you are a good player in Div 3, you are still going to get looked at...everyone knows when a good player comes along.. thats righ if you are good enogh people will see if in divvy 1 divvy 2divvy 3 spent hole career in divv2 and 3 at sunshine bit of loylty helps i had cash throwen at me but stayed because i love that club
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Hammo
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by Hammo on Sept 23, 2008 12:41:47 GMT 10
The way some Division 1 clubs approach outstanding junior players to come across is deplorable. I have had good young players from my club told that if they don't play at a divvy 1 club, they will never get selected in state teams or get looked at by scouts, signed etc. Divvy 1 Clubs that have trouble recruiting juniors only ever seem to approach the better junior players from lower division clubs, if they were offered a player who is a battler but just wants to play, in most cases they wouldn't have them. The VBA has a moratorium on players changing clubs once relegated and perhaps should do the same with juniors. The club that put the time and effort into developing a player should be able to reap the benefits of them as a senior. This would encourage all clubs to develop a strong junior program and would reward clubs for their work in the future.
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Post by greatwhitehope on Sept 23, 2008 12:46:08 GMT 10
The way some Division 1 clubs approach outstanding junior players to come across is deplorable. I have had good young players from my club told that if they don't play at a divvy 1 club, they will never get selected in state teams or get looked at by scouts, signed etc. Divvy 1 Clubs that have trouble recruiting juniors only ever seem to approach the better junior players from lower division clubs, if they were offered a player who is a battler but just wants to play, in most cases they wouldn't have them. The VBA has a moratorium on players changing clubs once relegated and perhaps should do the same with juniors. The club that put the time and effort into developing a player should be able to reap the benefits of them as a senior. This would encourage all clubs to develop a strong junior program and would reward clubs for their work in the future. yes yes and yes
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Post by p26 on Sept 23, 2008 13:34:43 GMT 10
I had a feeling that a junior couldn't have a clearance rejection overturned on appeal, unless they could show that the reason they wanted to leave was to do with junior ball?
Ie, when my clearance from moorabbin to malvern got rejected as a top age under 18, I couldn't use the excuse that the seniors were in div 3. The appeal was knocked back as the two junior teams played in the same league and Charlie Warner was coaching juniors at Moorabbin, therefore no advantage to be playing juniors at Malvern. No advantage on junior merits = no clearance.
If this is still the case, and the first team really does put the right amount of effort in to their junior programs then no appeal should overturn the rejection.
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21
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by 21 on Sept 23, 2008 15:22:45 GMT 10
I also heard that new reasons / evidence cannot be bought into a appeal meeting as well....I dont think it runs that way............................should, but doesnt...I think sometimes it just might be your standing in the baseball community
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21
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by 21 on Sept 23, 2008 15:24:32 GMT 10
G W Hope, do I know you...there are only a cple of great white hopes that i know or heard of and i'm thinking you are one of them...given the talk about your interest in a club down werribee way
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21
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by 21 on Sept 23, 2008 16:33:13 GMT 10
One used to play for the reds and the other for the monarchs.....I'm thinking the monarchs..lefty who can throw a little and used to throw a little all over the shop...how close am I
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Post by west on Sept 23, 2008 16:53:00 GMT 10
One used to play for the reds and the other for the monarchs.....I'm thinking the monarchs..lefty who can throw a little and used to throw a little all over the shop...how close am I yea pretty good I knew you when you knew lots of very big words
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Post by greatwhitehope on Sept 23, 2008 16:54:08 GMT 10
I knew you when you knew lots of very big words lol
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Post by west on Sept 23, 2008 16:55:03 GMT 10
And you had very sore knees after one trip!! Lots of stories if you are the greatwhite hope I know.
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Post by greatwhitehope on Sept 23, 2008 17:01:03 GMT 10
And you had very sore knees after one trip!! Lots of stories if you are the greatwhite hope I know. some of those storys are a misconception is that word long enough for you let me know who you are pm me
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Post by lowdown on Sept 28, 2008 23:06:19 GMT 10
Kouch all is forgiven. Please come back the mulligrubs need you! As for the junior thing, Theo was once asked why paul wouldn't be playing at a div 1 club. Wouldn't it help his chances of getting in the state team? What a f**king bozzo! That is the attitude of most of the first div clubs. They think we're all stupid, and that we can all do heaps better. The league cannot continue with it's current policy concerning it's criteria, as most clubs will be struggling in th e near future, 1st div included! Sorry folks a little under the weather after our day at chelt.
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Post by nudrun on Sept 29, 2008 13:34:16 GMT 10
Kouch all is forgiven. Please come back the mulligrubs need you! As for the junior thing, Theo was once asked why paul wouldn't be playing at a div 1 club. Wouldn't it help his chances of getting in the state team? What a f**king bozzo! That is the attitude of most of the first div clubs. They think we're all stupid, and that we can all do heaps better. The league cannot continue with it's current policy concerning it's criteria, as most clubs will be struggling in th e near future, 1st div included! Sorry folks a little under the weather after our day at chelt. might make a few cameos this year.
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