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Post by bobby on Jun 27, 2014 9:28:01 GMT 10
Here is a little video of he new Aces Manager, could be an interesting season!
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Post by philniekro on Jun 27, 2014 10:36:19 GMT 10
From the White Sox organisation.. if that's true,( and my sources tell me it is a signed deal ), then the sweep out will happen and maybe a certain former pitcher will be helping out..given he used to pitch for the whitesox
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ricky
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Post by ricky on Jun 27, 2014 15:15:45 GMT 10
Hey Bobby keep searching,any manager with this guys experience is bound to have more than one little video, he may even have some skeletons in the closet so to speak. One things for sure it appears the guy knows baseball and congrats to the Aces for having a go at serious change
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Post by bobby on Jun 27, 2014 16:39:46 GMT 10
Hey Ricky,
I have no issue with the video, you dont see the entire game or the reason he was tossed. I like it because it shows his passion. I hope he brings this type of passion to the Aces!
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Post by outbackbaseball on Jun 28, 2014 20:37:53 GMT 10
Sorry to sound like the fun police, but dummy spits like the above can send a negative message to people who might be considering taking an interest in baseball. I'd rather a manager who can manage their temperament, and can achieve results whether a call is right or wrong.
Since the league was re-born we have seen some overseas managers, but Kevin Boles with the Blue Sox was all talk, and Charlie Aliano didn't last long. Steve Schrenk was alright and the fact he came back for a second season helped him. He was penned to return for season three, but he wasn't able to due to factors outside of the sport.
Brooke Knight and Steve Fish are overseas managers, but Fish is based here, and Knight has accumulated a lot of time here.
Surely there is someone in Victoria or within Australia who could take the reins of the Aces? But the rumours say it will be an overseas person, and I think it's a gamble to go that way.
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ricky
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Post by ricky on Jun 29, 2014 3:16:25 GMT 10
Surely you jest outback, how much longer should the paying fans put up with the last four years of results, with supposedly some of the best Aussie coaches available in charge, no disrespect to anyone but change in some form must happen.
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Post by outbackbaseball on Jun 29, 2014 9:51:34 GMT 10
Ricky, I totally agree, a change is needed for the Aces.
There are a few good Australian managers who don't hold the same position in the ABL, though. Specifically, Paul Elliott coaches/managers within the Blue Jays farm system, and Andrew Graham is a High A manager within the Detroit Tigers farm system. Both are from New South Wales, but they would have greater knowledge of the league and players than a foreign manager.
A point I would like to make regarding a foreign manager is results have been mixed across the league, and Boles and Aliano were both talked up, and didn't deliver on that.
I would love to see American Paul Runge come back to Melbourne! He's still around the baseball scene in the U.S.
You never know a new foreign manager could do really well in Melbourne, but I think it is important to be guarded in terms of what they might be able to do so fresh to Australia.
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Post by bigbluball on Jun 29, 2014 11:52:11 GMT 10
With all due respect the managers in the US are persuing this as a career but the Australian managers or would be managers talk a good game and deliver little else. The odd managers who "carries on" is of little concern to me and the thought of this behaviour sending "a negative message" is not going to turn people from the game. what will turn people from the game is the current culture that is festering through this sport.
Bring in someone new I say!
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Post by outbackbaseball on Jun 29, 2014 15:17:10 GMT 10
With all due respect the managers in the US are persuing this as a career but the Australian managers or would be managers talk a good game and deliver little else. The odd managers who "carries on" is of little concern to me and the thought of this behaviour sending "a negative message" is not going to turn people from the game. what will turn people from the game is the current culture that is festering through this sport. Bring in someone new I say! Agreed, bring in someone new. Baseball theatrics don't change the outcome, but some people get amused by the arguments and a manager or coach getting tossed. It's negative mostly because it achieves nothing and the arguing is bad etiquette. If a foreign manager comes and has a good season, and then doesn't return we are right back where we started, up in the air. If the overseas manager could be available for multiple seasons that is something to work with. Often foreign coaches and managers come for just one season. Current culture festering through the sport could mean anything, please elaborate. |
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Post by stuartcapel on Jun 29, 2014 17:05:25 GMT 10
While I am as eager as the next Aces member for a new manager to be officially named by the club, I am happy to wait for the announcement and an understanding of what direction it means the club will be taking for the coming season.
For Coach Dale, who has left after four seasons, thank you for your efforts over the past four seasons. It cannot have been an easy role at times and I am sure much happens behind the scenes that the general public never gets to hear about that made the job a challenge.
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Post by bigbluball on Jun 30, 2014 21:04:01 GMT 10
Outbackbaseball, I do get your point but there is also the times where a manager will lose his cool in defence of his team only to see them inspired and possibly play better.
We could debate that it can have both a positive or negative affect on a team but that is the art of a good manager as to when/where and how to "argue" with umpires to inspire.
The idea of etiquette is another that can be debated due to the influences that come from USA when here in Australia we are being seduced by the Majors way of playing the game when in reality we are far from that and need to form our own "way of playing".
Yes managers will come and go (so what!) Brooke Knight has taken Perth to 2 championships and helped enhance the strongest state in the country (also arguably the smallest) but lets not think if it doesn't work straight away that we go back to "the old way" that has already had a chance and not worked.
As for your final question, I'll put it this way, if you have a sore on your foot and do nothing about it and it begins to "fester" do you continue to do nothing about it or do you seek to fix it ?
Read some of the posts in the thread "The once premier state" and get a feel for what is happening. Just signing kids to pro contracts from time to time does nothing more than pretend things are OK. The kids that get released are tossed out with the bath water!
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Post by mc15 on Jul 1, 2014 11:25:25 GMT 10
Just signing kids to pro contracts from time to time does nothing more than pretend things are OK. The kids that get released are tossed out with the bath water! Completely disagree with this observation. From the 1998 announcement that baseball would field contingents of current and former professional players in the Olympics, Baseball Australia aligned its national team representation with players who were established professional or players who were on the back end of their professional opportunities. The fruits of this approach could be seen clearly in the results at the 1999 Intercontinental Cup, the 2004 Olympics and numerous other international competitions since. The majority of rosters in the ABL are a blend of current and form we professional players. The under 23 and now 25 Australian Championships captures players who have either left college or have been released early young from their professional contracts. If you delve into transitions away from US pro opportunities and look into further playing options in Europe, Asia, local head coaching positions here and how personable former players have been integrated into state and national activities, you will clearly see that opportunities exist both here in Australia and overseas. To suggest there has not been a focused support mechanism of support is just not an accurate representation of the reality. |
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Post by outbackbaseball on Jul 1, 2014 12:22:14 GMT 10
Bigbluball, I accept a manager getting tossed is a matter of personal opinion as to what value such antics offer. I'm of the view we can do without it, as I've already noted. Brooke Knight is married to an Australian and has coached/managed in Australia well before the current ABL got underway, so as I mentioned previously he is an exception to overseas coaches/managers usually staying for one season.
MC15, I completely agree with all your points, and would like to complement what you have written by mentioning blended Australian teams at: all three WBC's, various World Cups, and the exhibition games played by Australia leading up to the MLB Opening Series.
Completely disagree with this observation. From the 1998 announcement that baseball would field contingents of current and former professional players in the Olympics, Baseball Australia aligned its national team representation with players who were established professional or players who were on the back end of their professional opportunities. The fruits of this approach could be seen clearly in the results at the 1999 Intercontinental Cup, the 2004 Olympics and numerous other international competitions since. The majority of rosters in the ABL are a blend of current and form we professional players. The under 23 and now 25 Australian Championships captures players who have either left college or have been released early young from their professional contracts. If you delve into transitions away from US pro opportunities and look into further playing options in Europe, Asia, local head coaching positions here and how personable former players have been integrated into state and national activities, you will clearly see that opportunities exist both here in Australia and overseas. To suggest there has not been a focused support mechanism of support is just not an accurate representation of the reality. |
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ricky
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Post by ricky on Jul 1, 2014 13:53:15 GMT 10
So Outback your view on the previous aces manager who over the last four seasons has been ejected from games on numerous occasions is acceptable because he is Australian???
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Post by outbackbaseball on Jul 1, 2014 15:42:35 GMT 10
So Outback your view on the previous aces manager who over the last four seasons has been ejected from games on numerous occasions is acceptable because he is Australian??? Hello Ricky, no, I've never said anything even remotely like that.
But since you ask I also think poorly of Australian managers for getting tossed.
However, in over 20-years of watching baseball in this country I have never seen theatrics quite like those of the proposed American manager above.
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Post by bigbluball on Jul 1, 2014 19:59:35 GMT 10
My dream for this league is that 1 day all teams would be managed and coached by Australians but the reality is that we do not have the quality and numbers of Australians needed to control all teams.
How many assistants have the Aces had over the first 4 seasons and how many pass their knowledge at club level?
There is very little being done to allow "Aussies" to gain the experience to possibly one day manage a team.
The very small number we do believe have the experience either want nothing to do with the ABL (for there own reasons) or have had a go and have very poor records, so lets not just put up with this because a handful of people "talk a good game".
I want change and believe the sport is worse off for the lack of it!
I know of coaches with fantastic records who are ignored and "nudged" out of the system and I know of some getting an armchair ride through the system after coaching no teams at all.
MC15, there will always be a competition for players to play in as long as they pay or chase the dream themselves!
Australia will forever represent at tournaments (olympics for mine is a waste of time, that's why the Classic was started). And by the way I could manage a team to the occassional win every 10/15 years!
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Post by mc15 on Jul 1, 2014 20:30:10 GMT 10
I too would love to see coaching staffs exclusively populated by Australians. The barrier here is money. The job spec for the Aces manger position according to the grade scales of coaching in Australia would be asking for 100-110k p/a. My understanding would be that the Aces would have struggled to offer more than 10-15k. The sport is not in a financial position to allow for multiple full time coaching roles at this stage.
Actually apart from Tony Harris as an interstate coach, and Damian Shanahan who heads up the state development programs, every other coach on the Aces has involvement back in club land. So the influence is there if you are willing to seek it.
Who's had the armchair rides?
I commented on your suggestion that returning athletes are 'thrown on the scrap heap'. I don't understand your comments directed to me in how it relates to my response to you. I reiterate, there are several clear opportunities that have been created for returning players. I don't know what your sister managing has to do with that.
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Post by gj on Jul 2, 2014 9:12:16 GMT 10
This is starting to get off topic a bit, but why do we need an under 25's to create opportunities for ex college & pro players. The original state argument for holding the 23's was to give players who had slipped through the gaps the chanceto be loked at.
This has happened at the expense of the Australian Provincials, who is giving these country kids an opportunityto play at some higher level?
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Post by mc15 on Jul 2, 2014 11:39:10 GMT 10
This is starting to get off topic a bit, but why do we need an under 25's to create opportunities for ex college & pro players. The original state argument for holding the 23's was to give players who had slipped through the gaps the chanceto be loked at. This has happened at the expense of the Australian Provincials, who is giving these country kids an opportunityto play at some higher level? I'm with you on this one. 23 is more in line with what I think fills the void. 25 will be in the ABL world. Don't know the ages players are historically returning to Australia from pro/college. If it is older, 25 may work |
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Post by perfeckt on Jul 2, 2014 15:42:46 GMT 10
mc15, I don't think that it's that far "off topic". It could be a trickle down effect that started with MLBi's 75% stake in the ABL and the caveats that may, or may not have been attached to their commitment.
Could we see a day when a State U25's squad included a prospect from Wisconsin or Puerto Rico?
I know that it may seem silly, just throwin' it out there. After all, once upon a time the Aces was a team made up of Victorians. Not saying good or bad, unless of course player fees at club level are supporting a scenario whereby international interest/s overtake those of fee paying recreational ball players, for example.
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Post by mc15 on Jul 2, 2014 18:10:48 GMT 10
Agree perfeckt it is on topic. I have not seen a purpose statement for the under 25's so I don't know the objectives. Should be in BA's strategical plan
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Post by bigbluball on Jul 2, 2014 19:36:36 GMT 10
MC15, I've noticed when your posts don't include a government funded survey, a "pie chart" or "flow chart" from sports stats going back to the 70's your responses are nothing more than "guff".
I'm not sure if you are absorbing the questions before responding, "How many assistants have the Aces had over the first 4 seasons"? and you give 2 names, 1 from interstate and how did that experiment pan out for the team? Nobody in Victoria capable or willing to do the job? I even wonder if anyone from Vic was asked to be involved! Really! In 4 seasons!
You say "The majority of rosters in the ABL are a blend of current and form we professional players. (Dae Sung Koo signs with Blue Sox, represents Perth in Asian cup twice i beleive, back to Blue Sox, off to Canberra for Asian cup, back to Blue Sox, off to the Australian team for MLB series and back to Blue Sox! Throw in a few All-Star games and thats a blend alright!
The under 23 and now 25 Australian Championships captures players who have either left college or have been released early young from their professional contracts".
Does the 25's exist or not? at the expense of the Provincials?
You say " The job spec for the Aces manger position according to the grade scales of coaching in Australia would be asking for 100-110k p/a. My understanding would be that the Aces would have struggled to offer more than 10-15k. The sport is not in a financial position to allow for multiple full time coaching roles at this stage". Didn't the ABF lose $1.4 million a couple of seasons ago? The ABF does have a financial share in this league right?
I know I've gone off track here but see if you can find a "pie chart" that explains elite sports that have lasted with incompetance, I'd like to see that!
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ricky
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Post by ricky on Jul 3, 2014 11:29:35 GMT 10
wow B B BALL you sure have some stats that makes a guy wonder W T F has been happening in aussie coaching ranks over the last 20 plus years??? seems the same people have been asked to do the same job for a long time, i'm sure these guys were around during the first attempt at a national comp allbeit some were competing, and once again no dissrespect to anyone but for heavens sake we must try change along with the implementation of a whole new group of personel assistants to perhaps bring a different light to the game. you make many more valid points of which i have little insight other than to say that the loss of the aussie provincial system as we knew it is an absolute dissgrace that needs to be addressed ASAP. this was a competition that survived fully funded by itself and the volunteer people involved, only when other entities wanted a cut of the profits did it all turn to sh1t.
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Post by mc15 on Jul 3, 2014 12:37:03 GMT 10
Geez bigbluball. I remember posting a bar graph and speed dial graph from some 2010 research, and a survey that AIS is calling for participant on now, but I don’t recall any pie charts or flow charts from the 70’s. What I do appreciate is that considering that you think my non-evidence based posts are “guff” that you still take the time to reply in detail to my useless posts. Makes me feel good about myself.
In all seriousness, I post where I think I might be able to provide insight from thinks that I know, I ask questions about things I would like to find more information about, and I am not afraid to publicly acknowledge what I don’t know rather than just make something up. Hence my response to perfeckt’s question.
In showing you the respect that you clearly have no intention of sharing back to me, I’ll answer your questions:
Your initial question was: “How many assistants have the Aces had over the first 4 seasons and how many pass their knowledge at club level?” I answered by sharing the only two coaches who ARE NOT involved at club level. This is due to their higher level responsibilities in Australian baseball. But if you want a list, here are names off the top of my head, in no particular order:
Phil Dale (Waverley)
Neil Burke (Waverley)
David Clarkson (Waverley)
Lee Hogan (Waverley)
Chis Maurer (Blackburn)
Phil Allen (Essendon)
Russell Spear (Essendon)
Stephen Black (Doncaster)
Damian Shanahan (Fmr Malvern)
Tony Harris (National Team)
Mitsuharu Nagayama acts as a coach/interpreter for the Japanese players
Jonathan Schuerholz was out hear courtesy of MLB
So by my count, there are nine Victorian coaches, one from interstate, and two in kind from overseas. Hardly a lack of utilization of local coaches.
Your second question in relation to the makeup of the rosters has been a point of conjecture. The one team that has chosen to somewhat resist the temptation to overload on imports are the Aces. On the 2012-13 roster, 27 player on last years roster were Australian, with all but one having player professionally or in college. There were 7 internationals with all three Japanese players going back at Christmas with two Americans playing club ball. The 2013-14 roster had 23 Australians on the roster, with a higher number of internationals that were again interchanged at Christmas. Again, only one player had not had pro or college experience. I would say the Aces are meeting their obligations in providing a pathway for Australia professional players without a doubt.
Baseball Australia has chosen to go to an under 25 format from the under 23’s. Given that after 3-4 years of college, you’d be round 22-23y/o coming back to Australia or if you signed and released early, you would be in your early 20’s my understanding would be that these players would be captured in an under 23’s competition. If BA has data to indicate that they need to go to under 25’s in order to bridge the gap to the ABL, so be it. I don’t understand why you have brought up the provincials. What go they have to do with the 25’s?
My reference to what the job was worth compared to what the job was paying is relevant based on who would apply. You are looking for someone to undertake a significant full time management role on 10-15% of the appropriate wage. Until you can create a career pathway for coaches that pays them a salary equal to the roles required, you are not going to get Australians in those positions as they need a day job to make ends meet. I have no idea of the financial position of Baseball Australia or their financial stake in the league. But clearly they are not in a position to remunerate accordingly. As such, Australian career coaches will continue to struggle from this end unless they are willing and able to relocate to the US in a full time coaching capacity.
The bottom line is that the league has now been functioning for a number of years under the ‘incompetent’ (your words) regime that is in place. The competition is still being underwritten by MLB, and clearly they are satisfied with the their objectives being achieved. I don’t know what those objectives are, and I would be surprised if many people in Australian baseball do. Whether the league meets your personal objectives (clearly not), my personal objectives (categorically not for reasons I’m not willing to share on here), or the broader baseball communities objectives is irrelevant as MLB are paying the bills and our players are getting an opportunity to play domestically at a higher level.
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ricky
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Post by ricky on Jul 3, 2014 14:21:17 GMT 10
nice one mc15, i can only point out that GJ has an earlier post re; the provincials and the current lack of oppotunity that country players now find available, however this is off track on this thread what i/we want to know is who the bloody hell is coaching the Aces this year and when will someone make an announcement?  |
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Post by doubleplay on Jul 7, 2014 17:21:20 GMT 10
I have been hearing the name of Tony Thompson from out of Chicago way could be landing in Melbourne. Or it could be just a loud rumour floating around.
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Post by stuartcapel on Jul 9, 2014 12:26:21 GMT 10
From the latest Aces newsletter:
We are pleased to announce that Tommy Thompson of the Chicago White Sox franchise has been signed as Manager for the 2014-2015 season.
Thompson is currently managing the Winston Salem Dash for the Chicago White Sox’ Class High-A team in the Carolina League.
“We are thrilled to have Tommy on board for the upcoming season,” said General Manager Windsor Knox. “He’s considered a legend on the US minor league circuit and we think it’s a real coup to have secured an international coach to lead our team this summer.”
Thompson has been a stalwart on the managerial circuit since 1990. From 1992-2005, he held the role of Catching Coordinator with the White Sox, before joining Baltimore's organisation to lead High-A Frederick in 2007 and 2008. In 2010 he returned to the White Sox organisation, managing the Kannapolis Intimidators, the White Sox' Class A South Atlantic League farm club in 2011 and 2013, and the Winston-Salem Dash in 2012.
Success on the US coaching circuit notwithstanding, Thompson is looking forward to heading up the Aces for our fifth season.
“I’m extremely excited about my upcoming summer Down Under,” he said. “It’s not every day that a manager gets the chance to help shape the future of an up-and-coming team in a new league. The Australian Baseball League has done a fantastic job in bringing professional baseball back to the people of Australia and now that the league is in its fifth season, it’s time to raise the bar.
"I’m well aware that there’s an incredible talent pool of both experienced and developing players in Melbourne and I can’t wait to start putting together the best Aces Coaching staff and team Melbourne has ever seen. Believe me when I say I intend to hit the ground running when I touch down in October. “
Thompson hails from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. He graduated from Northwest Classen High School in Oklahoma City and attended the University of Oklahoma. A catcher and first baseman during his playing days, his playing career extended from 1979 through 1988, in the farm systems of the Atlanta Braves and Chicago White Sox, peaking at the Triple-A level for the Richmond Braves, Buffalo Bisons, Vancouver Canadians and Hawaii Islanders.
Thompson will now look to appoint his coaching staff in the coming weeks to support the 2014-15 campaign so stay tuned for more news.
To celebrate the signing of our new Manager, the next ten members to sign up and renew their membership, will receive a framed picture of themselves with Tommy as well as an autographed baseball.
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Mr X
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Post by Mr X on Jul 9, 2014 14:10:26 GMT 10
Congrats to Tommy and welcome to Australian Baseball.
How is the last sentence "To celebrate the signing of our new Manager, the next ten members to sign up and renew their membership, will receive a framed picture of themselves with Tommy as well as an autographed baseball."
Are they serious, that has to be one of the worst marketing ploys! The have just announced a new Manager for the first time since the league was reformed and they are trying to sell memberships as a result! Whats next, 5 memberships for every assistant coach they announce?
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Post by outbackbaseball on Jul 10, 2014 21:19:39 GMT 10
I'm interested to see the imports that will be available for Tommy Thompson because as we're all aware the ABL decides that.
I must admit when ABL teams were affiliated to MLB clubs during the previous league, it was a bonus having a coach/manager who had knowledge of the [import] players because they were from the same organisation as each other. I wonder if we could ever have something like that again? I don't see the harm in an overseas coach/manager bringing some players along they know from their respective organisation. I guess it would be an informal affiliate relationship, but perhaps that could be workable.
Mr X, I agree, the Aces seem willing to use every opportunity to sign up members, and using the Thompson announcement was a little tacky.
The official announcement of Thompson months before the season commencement is good news, and gives him and the Aces a reasonable amount of time to prepare.
People may have forgotten this, but Phil Dale was field manager for the Melbourne Reds from 1989-90 to '93-94, and he continued on with the Reds/Monarchs as a player and a pitching coach until the final season in 1998-99, so it's not the first time he has taken a step back from field managing. He won more awards in the first ABL than any other person, and he stuck by this sport through thick and thin, so I have plenty of good memories of his achievements.
I am a bit worried about this season, though, because I think the ABL is expecting bigger turnouts on the back of the MLB Opening Series etc., and whilst I think some more people will come and check out the ABL, I'm not convinced we will see notably higher attendances across the whole season. Sorry to be negative, but I believe we need to be a bit conservative in terms of how much progress will be made with attendance numbers this season.
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Post by stuartcapel on Jul 29, 2014 18:58:42 GMT 10
Perhaps it's just me, a paid up member, who is wondering why, over a fortnight after the protected list was due for submission to ABL HQ, why the list has not been made public to members and fans of the club.
That said, perhaps I am being unreasonable. What right do members have to know what is going on at the club?
The smoke and mirrors are seemingly still prevalent in the hallways of the Melbourne BallPark.
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