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Post by mc15 on Jun 19, 2014 10:54:09 GMT 10
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING accelerates development like game play. There is no substitute for playing the game end of story. Johne I wish it were that simple. But the reality is that skill and gameplay development is multifactorial, and games alone will not address all these area. This I can assure you is indisputable.
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Post by pirates on Jun 19, 2014 11:17:25 GMT 10
I think that game play can be training time as well, not actual game time but simulated games as part of normal practice sessions is very important. Making technique adjustments in actual games is not recommended IMO, that's for the training/practice sessions. More games is a good thing but I also believe that there should also be cross training as well particularly during the younger years. Sports such as football, martial arts and others, as these sports provide the development in core and leg strength which is from what I have been told is the major concentration in baseball to day. I'm no expert but I do see and have seen the benefit of cross training.
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Post by johne on Jun 19, 2014 12:16:17 GMT 10
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING accelerates development like game play. There is no substitute for playing the game end of story. Johne I wish it were that simple. But the reality is that skill and gameplay development is multifactorial, and games alone will not address all these area. This I can assure you is indisputable. I’ve had fair bit of experience in this field and not just read studies and text books. I’ve lived it, and I continue to coach it at the junior levels we are talking about. Why has Australia produced and continued to produce so many quality professional pitchers but yet has struggled to produce every day position players? Simple Pitchers get enough game play and work under our 1 game a week system. Hitters do not. I don’t care how many times they hit of a T, do soft toss or hit in the cage nothing substitutes at bats. Baseball is a game that has to learn thru experience and not lecture. I can tell kids all day where to go on double cuts or to look away and react in for a 2k approach until I’m blue in the face but the only way they are going to be able to complete these skills is by trying them in games. Of course training has a place and is vitally important but to put it on par with actually playing for development then you’re kidding yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 14:06:33 GMT 10
Got to agree - nothing beats applying your skills/craft under a 'game day' situation.
Sure, you need to develop your skills and muscle memory etc with repetitive work that any number of drills do provide BUT applying those skills under pressure in a game sutuation against an opposituion (not your mates in a simulated game)is the only way to truly apply your ability, skill, technique AS WELL as your ability to execute in sync when it counts.
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Post by mc15 on Jun 19, 2014 17:55:59 GMT 10
So my interest in commenting on this topic was on three fronts... The initial intrigue created by the title of this thread from Russ... A lack of knowledge from my end on what the purpose/background was to the changes in the under-age format i.e little league etc... And Larry's question surrounding evidence to support pathway direction. In responding to my own curiosity, Russ's question is answered by the processes that are adopted, the purpose/background question is half answered in the ABF documentation, without a lot of supporting information, but I think I get where they are heading. Which leaves the final question from Larry which I believe I can provide insight on. I need to highlight that what I put below is the culmination of peer review research. These are not my ideas on concepts. Where possible, I can try to put things in a baseball context. Background- Coaches and support staff talk to each other about session content, testing, athletes, lack of time & resources - Very little time is spent talking to other coaches and support staff on how we coach and communicate. i.e Coaching methodology - Generally, coaches are left to their own “style” and “professional independence” - They generally review their own effectiveness of their techniques with little external contribution - In particular, successful results lead to a repeating of the same training structure during the following preparation through the evaluation of the outcome, but not the method in which it was applied The Goal- How do we react to how the athlete interprets, accommodates, rejects, and/or reinvents the content or skills? - How do we react to how the athlete applies the content to other tasks, and how the athlete acts in light of success and failure based on the methods utilised? - How we improve our ability to fully integrate within the programs in which we are involved? - How do we fully integrate into the processes, successes and failures of our athletes? Looking outside our sportOur roles fundamentally function as educators, whether it be through: - applied academic knowledge (exercise programming/recovery strategies/nutritional advice) - technical correction (skill acquisition/technical correction/rehabilitation) - analysis (tactical evaluation/game review/training & games movement data) Research into teaching/coaching influences is vast crossing cultural, social, economic, gender and generational cohorts. Distinctive trends have developed into successful (and not so successful) approaches to teaching/coaching. The data tells a story of strategies that can be used... It is not a “how to” guide for success First consider all the hundreds of influences that can be used to try and teach/coach. Very few if these influences have a negative effect on learning. This intuitively makes sense as the very fact a kid has turned up at training, they are getting exposure to the game therefore by default, they are getting better. It's important to note though, that this is not due to any teaching intervention. This is a normal developmental effect from participation. In effect, this is what occurs when we only play games. So if we start looking at interventions, we find that their effectiveness varies a great deal. Are they all positive? Yes. But some more than others. What if we could identify these more effective influences and focus in on them? This would provide us with a set of techniques we know are not only effective in improving performance, but at an accelerated level. The first image represents the full range of techniques on offer, with the highlighted area representing the focus area. The second image represents the breakdown of ineffective influences, natural development, moderate effectiveness and high level effectiveness. It is important to note that natural development is responsible for nearly 40% of the moderately effective influence outcomes. So what do these influences look like? Poor examples- Athlete preference on session content - Holding back or repeating based on performance - Changing teams - Time away from the regular training environment Average examples- Resources of the club (has no effect) - Number of team members - Teacher subject matter knowledge... Methodology and process of teaching more important than the complexity of content - Non-specific activities - Osmosis learning through observation - Competitive vs Individualistic *marginally better than the natural development effect- Co-/Team teaching - Programmed instruction (Cook book approach) - Unsupervised training Areas to focus on- Reciprocal teaching (coach teaching athlete, then athlete teaching the content to the coach) - Teaching training habits (teach an athlete how to train) - Peer tutoring (players teaching each other) - Providing formative evaluation (report cards of progression) - Mastery learning (Teaching for perfection) - Concept mapping *This is what BA have tried to do with their development model - Coach-athlete relationship (trust) - Microteaching (a little bit of information offen, then space for the athlete to try) - Acceleration (Keep challenging them with more difficult scenarios) - Self reported progress (get them to feed back to you their own thoughts on how they are progressing) - Professional development (Coaches investing their own knowledge and development) - Feedback *Not the information the coach gives the athlete, but the information the athlete gives the coach Anyway, this is a short summery of what the evidence says. Up to you if you want to use it or not
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 20:48:57 GMT 10
Given the aforementioned input, mc15, what specifically - in your opinion - is going wrong in Victorian baseball that our under-aged players have seemingly dropped so far off the pace against their interstate peers?
Where are our development programmes lacking? Of the processes and the research to which you refer, where are we as Victorians falling down? While you argue that intensive training may be more productive than game time, the outcomes in other states appear to confound that view.
In practical terms, what can and should be done - now - in seeking to arrest this trend?
It is not that simple, but we surely have to start somewhere.
"Natural development" may be a significant factor (as it is in all areas of learning), although it is arguably not being fully complemented in this state by effective teaching and reinforcement. Or is it?
Although in no way intended as a slight on our committed group of coaches, is it not significant that some of our most effective baseball development ventures (of at least the past 40 years to my knowledge) have been delivered - or at least overseen - largely by teachers?
My sense is that Victorian baseball, among other strategies, needs to get more seriously into the schools in order to help play more, to strengthen skill levels, nurture a love of the game and help form relationships with neighbourhood clubs. It should ideally be taught, in that context, by baseball people with professional educational expertise.
That might be a start, though it would require a commitment by the state governing body in resource and funding terms. And it might require a departure from the current money-making "camps" approach to junior engagement.
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Post by mc15 on Jun 19, 2014 21:29:55 GMT 10
Larry asked whether there was evidence to support the development model designed by Peter Gahan. In initially stated yes... That was challenged so I expanded. I restate this as I don't want to get into a slinging match about the stuff I've posted above. Anyone can take it or leave it as they wish.
As for your question on development, I think individual rather than team. So if we were to assess Baseball Victoria's programs, lets look at the number of kids in national teams, number of kids heading off to college and number of kids signing. I would think that would be the KPI's of a High Performance development program.
As for junior state team success, I loved the opportunity in representing Victoria and (hopefully) contributing to it's success as a player and coach within the junior programs for 12 years. But while the desire to win is critical, the method of how we win is more important. i.e long term development rather than a short term focus on winning. If this is the focus, I am happy to roll with the punches in terms of results.
To specifically answer your question in where I think we can improve our development across the state, I would focus on two things. Coaching capacity (increasing the number of coaches) and coaching quality (continual up-skilling of coaches). Coaches are the ones that create an environment where kids develop. If we can upward educate them, we can ensure their skills are improved in teaching baseball skills in a fun and engaging environment.
I'll leave it there as most will think I've said enough today.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 21:59:44 GMT 10
Yes, you've had a big day on the Forum mc15!
No-one here will be canning you for that. Quite the contrary.
We all share a passion for the sport and an interest in its betterment.
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Post by russelledwards on Jun 20, 2014 9:04:12 GMT 10
I really appreciate your input Michael. I see you and Nathan as being the same now as I was 30 years. You give of your time for free and you love the game. I could not disagree more however with your opinion that So if we were to assess Baseball Victoria's programs, lets look at the number of kids in national teams, number of kids heading off to college and number of kids signing. I would think that would be the KPI's of a High Performance development program. Read more: baseballradio.proboards.com/thread/3714/happened-time-premier-state?page=2#ixzz357xvcNreAre you suggesting that Thorpe, McGrath, Stenhouse, etc etc signed because of anything Baseball Victoria's High Performance Section did? If so I have a Bridge in Sydney to sell you. The guys who sign do so because of countless hours of work by the individual himself, his CLUB Coaches and in many instances the kid's parents. To suggest otherwise does enormous discredit to the Clubs that have programs that repeatedly produce Signees. If people sign because of the work of our High Performance Section then there should be individuals signing from Clubs across the board. My memory is nearly shot these days but perhaps you could name say half a dozen kids from Clubs other than Waverley, Cheltenham, Geelong, Essendon, Doncaster or Berwick that have signed in the last 5 years. To use Professional Signings as THE KPI for our Development Program would be a complete failure to allocate credit where it is really due - the grass roots of our game.
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Post by mc15 on Jun 20, 2014 14:36:13 GMT 10
I'm not going to get into a tit for tat argument with any party on who is/isn't responsible for any individual names. The simple reason for that is that the success rate of players progressing through the system is a result of the collective efforts of everyone involved. This clearly starts in club land, progresses through regional rep teams, extends into elite development and finally from a local perspective into the junior national team environment.
Claiming or blaming responsibility for one persons development equally means claiming or blaming for the lack of development for another. This approach just separates stake holders from each other and creates a wall blocking any form of cooperation.
For an effective system to operate, all areas need to understand their strengths, roles and responsibilities and stick with them while working in a civil fashion with those who can complement the skill sets they don't have.
There is no way that any local club can take on the role as a developer of elite talent in isolation just as an elite developer cannot take on the role of entry level developer. This is a classic case of the "Sum of the whole being greater than the parts"
This might sound idealistic, but this is the backbone of any functional system. Perhaps this in itself the problem... Sit at the table and work out your differences.
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Post by behindthedish on Jun 20, 2014 17:42:03 GMT 10
Totally agree with Johne and his father. Training is not the same as a "live" game. There is no pressure at training and you can make as many mistakes or errors, (and trying to correct them), without consequence, but making those same errors under pressure in a live game will have consequences with the end result - more games = more game knowledge and more baseball smarts, simple as that. Re kids being signed or off to college, it's not hard to see the kids that have potential, it's peretty obvious and if they work hard on their gifted ability, they will reap the rewards, no matter which club they are at. Agree re live BP and taking lots of ground/fly balls, but with all due respect, how many decent BP throweres / Fungo hitters are there around - for seniors, let alone juniors? The top clubs have them, but the lower clubs would struggle for personnel - I mean decent BP throwing, (60-70mph), not someone throwing pies.
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Post by oldracer on Jun 20, 2014 22:49:57 GMT 10
Long time long time but I will put this forward, every side in the US college system over 7 years that I was involved with that could hit, practised live outdoors against their own pitchers, regularly and I do believe that some states here also do that. Front toss, soft toss ok for grooving but live hitting on the field has always been the best. We are lazy, simple, pitchers love shagging fly balls, let them do it and our hitters will benefit big time, cheers racer
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Post by oldracer on Jun 20, 2014 22:55:10 GMT 10
To take your point to the right conclusion BTD, your senior pitchers bullpens midweek should be live against your hitters at the top level and that process should be filtered down at some level to each age group
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Post by oldracer on Jun 20, 2014 23:08:37 GMT 10
As for our kids at LL level throwing curves/sliders.....get a grip FFS, let them develop properly. Your kid could be a LL World Series Champion and not be able to wipe his a*** at 16 years of age, teach them how to throw a change early and that is their best pitch. Little League is a good initiative and stepping stone but at the end of the day it means squat, will not get your kid signed or a college scholarship so teach them the game properly to learn and not for the outcome. American kids play ball in the summer and football in the winter, scouts like to see them at both sports so for our kids to play 12 months a year is more demanding on their arms/bodies than the equivalent kids in the states, except obviously the QB's for their schools. The reality is that none of our kids will make a half decent living out of this recreational pursuit, enjoy it for what it is, a fantastic team sport that requires enormous work ethic, team spirit and gives us parents a great sense of involvement, mostly financial but we also get to form friendships that last a lifetime.
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smf
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Post by smf on Jun 23, 2014 11:45:05 GMT 10
Was "FFS" directed at me?
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Post by mc15 on Jun 27, 2014 19:50:24 GMT 10
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Post by pirates on Jun 27, 2014 20:31:31 GMT 10
Unconscious competence....
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Post by mc15 on Jun 27, 2014 21:23:47 GMT 10
Unconscious competence.... Best athlete I've ever seen
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Post by outbackbaseball on Jun 28, 2014 20:06:29 GMT 10
I take my hat off to the local coaches who develop players because they do so for the love of the game [often for free], and the satisfaction which comes from seeing a player reach their potential.
Local coaches often pass their knowledge on for free and I get annoyed the paid state high performance managers swoop in once a player starts to show higher talent, and then takes credit for the player. I accept they [high performance managers] add some value, but a lot of work has already been done by the player, and unsung heroes like their club coaches.
I don't agree with the number of full-time paid positions within the state and national bodies, and it's sucking precious money out of a sports which doesn't have much local earning capacity. High performance managers should be part-time because lets face it the kids they develop have school, and are only accessible after hours and during school holidays, therefore it is not necessary as a full-time role. It would do some baseball people in paid full-time jobs the world of good to have a day job, and be paid a part-time salary for their baseball work.
So many good players have come out of Victoria, and plenty more will follow, but a restructure of paid positions at state level and the ABL/ABF is long overdue.
I'm surprised Victoria aren't winning more silverware, and I don't blame the coaches or players, but I do think some states are smarter with their spending and how they manage their leagues and programs.
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Post by mc15 on Jun 28, 2014 20:49:29 GMT 10
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Post by russelledwards on Jun 28, 2014 21:25:59 GMT 10
Silly me - I thought the "primary aim" would be to prepare our TEAM to represent the State to the very best level possible. The primary aim is to develop and maximise the opportunities of our athletes to progress to the next level. In many cases this is to represent Australia and/or provide the necessary platform to allow them to progress into the National league, the US College system or professional ranks.
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Post by larry42 on Jun 28, 2014 21:28:20 GMT 10
Unconscious competence.... Best athlete I've ever seen Best athlete, hardest working athlete of his time, most competitive on court and training sessions.......all while bringing the NBA back to the billion dollar business it is now.
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Post by doubleplay on Jun 30, 2014 16:53:23 GMT 10
The best way to try and eradicate and improve the level of state teams is to get independent coaches that aren't tied up as a scout or whatever with an MLB team and get people with no ties or inhibitions that will play players where they should and not where some scout wants them to play. Maybe then Victoria will get back to where we should be. Also, we need to stay up with the Jones when it comes to junior rules about pitching.
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Post by russelledwards on Jun 30, 2014 17:19:33 GMT 10
No need to worry about how they perform DP. As BV have stated "The primary aim is to develop and maximize the opportunities of our athletes to progress to the next level". I was lucky enough to represent the State at Junior and Senior level and if this is now the "primary aim" that our State Coaches have to strive for, then I am glad the Teams are now called the Aces and not Victoria. For many years I attended P&S Meetings on behalf of EBC and no one would have dared to suggest this Mission Statement for our State Teams in those days. I guess times have changed. Given the newly stated Primary Aim, it's probably best we just stop scoring in the National Championships. That way at least, the fact that Victoria have fallen so far off the pace will not be quite as obvious to the rest of the Country.
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Post by wyatt33 on Jul 1, 2014 15:16:12 GMT 10
As a part time coach of a bunch of battlers, I'd be ecstatic if any of my kids progressed to the next level, and received the attention they'd require from a state coach. As much as I think I know the game, my ability to take the kids to the next level might be limited. That's where the state program's should step in. We at mulgrave had the pleasure of host the under 16 team training and tryouts. Those guys were well drilled and the coaches certainly made the boys work. From watching that I don't think the coaches are at fault. I think it's the standard has dropped. There aren't as many kids playing, and hence, there's less quality at the top. It's pretty simple maths. If you don't have as many kids to choose from, there's less competition for positions, kids are working as hard to make the grade. Reckon if we start to see the numbers of kids coming thru like we had in the 80's and 90's, then we'll see a return to days were Vic baseball was THE power in Australia!
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Post by larry42 on Jul 3, 2014 15:57:38 GMT 10
I'm going to sound a little Bruce McAvaney like here but i find this kind of topic and the sub topics under it fascinating. im no expert and my opinion means little, but i do like to read up on techniques and keep myself reasonably updated. Im split on this one with the training versus game time sessions, if so more towards the training but obviously with a big asterix next to it. Extar games with the reduction of meaningful training may not work for all involved within the session. Game reads is the biggest advantage by the exra games and i am still a firm believer that our junior teams need to play more games. But the advantage of a training session revolves around getting a really good quality training session, where game-like situations and pressure moments can be manufactured time and time again, under controlled conditions by the coaching staff. Like Crooksy, i'm a massive fan of the athlete and competitior that Michael Jordan was. Phil Jackson was always a believer to make the training replicate game situations to push his players so they would all be ready for when their number was called and they could deliver under pressure what was trained under pressure. One of my references to junior games and wanting to play more, is wanting to play more higher standard games. At Waverley last year, my junior team played 4 competitive games in which all involved could walk away and say they played ina competitive game. 4..for the entire season including finals. This isnt a slur on any other teams/clubs, its just a statement of where things are at with that age group. When some of those kids go and play other kids from other states, they are slightly off the level and seem to lack that little bit of polish that may come from more games or better uality training.
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Post by bigbluball on Jul 20, 2014 11:49:40 GMT 10
I know I've been accused of being a little slow from time to time but I just heard the U14's national champs is being scrapped and in it's place will be various businesses and a "pay per use" system ! If there was ever an indicator that current administrators and coaches are selfish and failing miserably, here it is. Of course nobody will respond with answers as to why this is happening or we will be fed the usual crap of "the games in great shape" ! I think there is maybe 10/12 people Australia wide involved in these sorts of decision making and because baseball has no profile at all here, these decision makers who have already been employed long term are making decisions based on "how i can keep my job". The MLB game is Sydney has done nothing for the profile (but a handful of bigwigs pampered themselves), U'14's champs gone (if true), Academy in QLD down to 3 weeks, Chasing the Olympics is a 'dog chasing it's tail' (only so the game can get government money) and the first 4 seasons of the ABL has been average at best with poor crowds, corrupt selection of players to "needy teams" ! I even heard of players leaving our shores "unpaid" ! The best Website for Aussie's is rumoured to be run by people of questionable past and the 10/12 people I mentioned earlier have known all along about these charecters and their checkered past and said nothing for years for fear of "rocking the boat" ! I'll give you a tip folks "the boat is sinking" and the captain and crew are "dining 5 star" while telling us nothing and answering to nobody!
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player
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Post by player on Jul 20, 2014 22:33:47 GMT 10
Do I sense just a touch of bitterness in your remarks, bluball?
Can't say that I blame you for that, given the general lack of confidence that appears to be currently felt for baseball leadership in this state and this country.
Still, you are making the running, so let us please be specific.
Has the Under 14 National Championship definitely been scrapped? Where is this officially notified? What will be in its place, from what you can gather? Surely not an expansion of this user pays, child-minding "Holiday Camps" nonsense that Baseball Victoria seems to be fixated upon (presumably because it makes certain people a quid).
The ABL has been a disappointment to many people, for various reasons. 2014/15 will be its fifth year. MLB interests always said that they did not expect miracles in the early days of the league, though one expects that the upcoming season will be crucial to the league's future.
Some people might describe Australian Baseball Digest as the best Australian baseball site. I don't subscribe to that for one moment, given that it is managed by a convicted and listed child sex offender who writes none of his own material but relies solely on news feeds and the efforts of other, professional people writing about the sport.
The scandal is that the ABF has known about Trevor Jarrett's involvement with the Digest for a long time but has kept its head buried well and truly in the sand. I'm tipping that this unethical inaction will come back to bite our sport on the a*** in the not too distant future.
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Post by doubleplay on Jul 21, 2014 12:39:25 GMT 10
I must admit that I did hear about the Nakamura camps for u/14's about a month ago. It did sound like that this was going to replace the U/14 championships. But I think that this proposal is still in it's formative stage. At present the ABL is nothing more than maybe a Div1+ game of baseball and needs a true shot in the arm to make drastic improvement. And as for the ABF, less said the better as their decision making at present and in the past doesn't seem to have baseball totally in their thoughts apart from how to raise more money out of the players and what further rorts they can scheme up for the future.
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Post by outbackbaseball on Jul 21, 2014 14:43:38 GMT 10
I had the misfortune of mingling with ABF/ABL staff during the MLB Opening Series, and senior ABF staff were an embarrassing group of drunks. Perhaps that is normal for them, but some important people from MLB saw them carrying on like binge drinking teenagers. Ironic considering the ABL sponsorship message of stamping out binge drinking!
It also infuriated me to see ABF/ABL staff accept credit for the MLB Opening Series when it wasn't even their project for the most part. Moore Sports had been working on it for seven years!
As for Victoria I'd like to affirm that with the clowns running the ABF/ABL it's little wonder VIC Baseball is experiencing frustration, and not performing to past standards. How can Victoria do well when most of its people (Victorian baseball public) are smarter and more sober than the people responsible for the game at a national level!
I'm angered by how many people have a full-time paid job out of baseball in Australia, and add no value. As mentioned in previous posts they want to keep their income rolling at the expense of a sport already thin on cash. Drunk scumbags!
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