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Post by larry42 on Nov 1, 2012 20:41:20 GMT 10
Stu, fortunately sunscreen was invented and should save us all from the travesty of ballplayers wearing wide-brimmed hats. Larry42, I don't mean to deride your concern as a parent, but isn't the issue of a mouthguard more to do with vanity than safety? I wouldn't have assumed the risk of 'catastrophic' injury from a ground ball to the mush being that high... sure, a crooked smile and some added expenses for dental work, but not potential death/disability. Why do we need so many rules to protect us from the risks of activities we chose to do? We choose to play baseball, a sport with over 150 years of tradition and history. The risks involved in the sport have barely changed in that time, yet now we're worried there's not enough rules in place to protect us. I like the restrictions on the bats (not necessarily wood, but US Colleges have introduced new restrictions on aluminum that has greatly reduced the exit speed and made them similar in performance to wood), to minimise the impact of technology on our game. But the need to enforce rules on everyone to protect them from everything is madness (perhaps only to me?). I have two big scars across my forehead from being hit by flying baseball bats (perhaps a rule that everyone must use pine tar is in order!)... both times seriously rung my bell, and there's no doubt I'm more aware of my surroundings than before. But I am absolutely not going to start wearing a helmet around the park because there's a chance it might happen again. There's nothing to stop me wearing one, just as there's no rule to stop you wearing a mouth guard, or a helmet when you pitch (grey area, there could be if the uniform cap rule is interpreted that way, but I'd doubt an umpire would take the risk of enforcing a 'no-helmet' rule)... if you want to protect yourself, you can. I take the risk when I step on the field and I don't ask for everyone else to be protected because I've suffered. I take the risk and I accept the consequences. Nate - for the record I don't believe that pitchers should wear helmets. What I do think is that within the next few years a manufacturer will come up with a protective device similar to what EvoShield is working on now. The more incidents that occur with pitchers getting hurt, then the likelihood of it gaining more momentum and foothold in baseball. Games and times change, US High School football now about to adopt a new rule that allows referees/officials to eject players who they believe to have Symptoms of concussion. Yes, different game and different injury patterns, but it's a change that wasn't in the winds some 10 years ago.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 2, 2012 10:48:47 GMT 10
larry42, we're singing from the same songsheet... I'd also hate to see it, but when I look around, I fear it's inevitable.
The issue of American football is interesting, and it appears a similar approach is being adopted by the AFL.
From what I've seen, there is a large amount of medical evidence to support the theory that concussions may cause long-term brain injuries. While I can find just as much evidence to suggest otherwise, I can understand why sporting leagues are erring on the side of caution (not that I agree, just understand).
In reading articles on the issue, and through some superficial research, I'm yet to find any clear research to suggest the concern of pitchers getting hit is any more likely or the intensity more severe than, say, second baseman getting hit.
My logic tells me it should be more dangerous, anecdotally I can see some examples, but where is the long-term studies that confirm our concerns? I fear this could be a knee-jerk reaction to some high profile incidents and a growing fear of liability, rather than a considered measure.
I've never been a pitcher, so some help, please... would pitching in a helmet impact your ability to pitch? Would it alter your mechanics? Would it become a deterent to kids wanting to pitch (perception of not being cool... perception of parents that pitching is overtly dangerous)?
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 2, 2012 10:52:30 GMT 10
I understand parents hate the idea of having to pay for dental repairs... very expensive! And I'm sure no parent wants their kid to have a crackhead's crooked smile.
Is this enough for us to want to control the behaviour and be responsible for every kids teeth? Is it enough to want mandatory mouthguard wearing?
Isn't this something individual families and players should be able to decide... as I noted yesterday, I don't think a bad hop in the mouth is likely to result in grave danger.
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Post by larry42 on Nov 2, 2012 11:26:37 GMT 10
Eagle - i threw seniors for the good part of 15 years (note didn;'t say Pitch as i wasn't very good) I was never hit in the head, can't even remember a ball fizzing past my scone that often. I was hit a few times in the hip and a couple of times on the legs but not much else. As far as wearing a helmet/protective devise i'm not sure how i'd feel about it. A basic skull cup doesn't provide the protection that medical research states we need. Maybe something that looks like the device the college pitcher is wearing under his hat might be something they are looking at. But again, it only protects the head and not the face. Maybe those SWAT masks the guys wear with the shield that can come down and cover the face. Imagine that!!
Its amazing how things change. I watched some old footage of Jackie Robinson playing wearing no helmet and having to duck out the way of every second pitch. Then watched some of Barry Bonds late career at bats when he had his massive elbow guard on that would dent the baseball if it hit him. i just believe in this litigation society we live in, something will give at some stage. When and how....?
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Post by oldmanriver on Nov 2, 2012 11:56:22 GMT 10
Like most things in life, most of the time you make the suggestions to help improve the safety or protection of the body in sport. It is purely up to the individual whether they choose to adopt the suggestions. I can only liken it to junior cricket throught Australia where it became mandatory for batsmen for all Junior players to wear helmets. It is even mandatory if a fieldmans is within 1/2 the length of the pitch. Even the keepers are required to wear a helmet. The option then comes into the u/16's but the batter and keeper must still be wearing helmets. all the way through their junior years. That said, having u/12's wearing a no eared helmet to pitch in would not be that much of a burden. I think I may have said yesterday or the day before, once in the u/16's, they then can have the option of wearing it or not. It is more the perception of showing a duty of care towards the player and the parent to show that we as a whole care about the well being of the young player.
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Post by aueagle30 on Nov 2, 2012 17:30:37 GMT 10
OMR, I personally dislike any rule or law that is or would be created merely to create an perception we were doing the right thing.
But I agree, it seems MLB is considering this out of perception of problem/fear of inaction. My greater concern is this could filter down, adding costs to clubs/players to provide addtional equipment and use of equipment that's not appropriate (a poorly fitted helmet could be more dangerous than none at all).
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Post by Coalmined on Nov 2, 2012 20:23:17 GMT 10
I agree with aueagle. Don't introduce a law to create perception. If it will save 1 life that is reason enough. But a point I would like to hear peoples thoughts on. Do peoples skills/instincts become diminished for added protection being in place?
If it is a legitmate safety improvement lets introduce it. But Lets not be do gooders who need to wrap everyone and everything in cotton wool. Next we will have safety bases and the infield will be covered in cotton wool.
People have referred to cricket a bit in this thread. I was a cricketer for 20 years before coming into baseball. The addition of the protection, in my mind has diminished a lot of skills.
If a player has all the protection at their disposal they are not relying on the instincts and training that is put in place. Does everybody remember Steven Waugh fending off bouncer after bouncer? Easy to do when you have gloves, thigh pad, chest pad, helmet. Look at the blokes that played in the years before him. Dean Jones, Alan Border, Viv Richards, Clive Lloyd. One thing that sticks in my mind is that they were all great hookers and pullers of the ball. All had to learn to avoid the ball or get hit. Justin langer? how many times did he get drilled in the head? Grew up wearing a helmet? Never learned proper technique.
My point being, if the protection is not there, than survival mode comes into play and you train these instincts accordingly. Those with kids, when your kid picks up a ball to throw to you. what do you do? Natural reaction, first thing you do is cover your nuts and your face. If you had a cup and a helmet would you bother?
I used to wear a mouth guard when I played footy and basketball, as there is is contact in those sports. Errant elbows and the like. You can't train for that.
I was a wicket keeper for 15 years on turf and kept up to the stumps for a lot of my career, including to opening bowlers. Never wore a helmet or a mouthguard. But I spent many a night at training in the nets watching bowlers/batsmen and the movements so that come game time I was confident enough in my ability to do it and be safe while doing it.
If I was in need to go out and play third base with a mouth guard i would suggest that a lot more ground balls at training are required. Got a glove use it. I know a bloke who got to triple A level and has never worn a cup. He says I got a glove.
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Post by eckersley43 on Nov 2, 2012 21:09:03 GMT 10
One point I would take issue with Coalmined. If an adult doesn't want to wear a cup, he can make that "nutty' or lack of them,decision. I would hope that the same individual would not be passing on that advice to juniors in his charge..otherwise he would be acting totally irresponsibly. Back to your cricket analogy..we had a guy hit in the absent box area, as he lay on the pitch in agony, the coach suggested someone "hold onto them", (presumably to stop an ascension) until the Ambulance arrived. Strange that there were no volunteers.
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Post by perfeckt on Nov 2, 2012 21:15:36 GMT 10
Yeah Coalmined my natural instinct is to protect my nut and my nuts but personally, I think that juniours don't have the experience to make those decisions. My juniour wouldn't wear a mouthguard because of the uncoolness factor and that is a cultural influence. Once a juniour becomes 16 years of age they have personal legal rights that even the parent can't query or challenge. I would think it reasonable to enforce protective equipment for juniours and then let them make their own call when they are legally able. Is not wearing protective gear anymore lethal than say...chewing tobacco? One thing I know for sure is that it is definitely not fun catching a ball with your nads but I'm pretty sure that even though you may want to die because of such a contact, you wouldn't die because it.
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Post by wako on Nov 2, 2012 22:07:46 GMT 10
I agree with aueagle. Don't introduce a law to create perception. If it will save 1 life that is reason enough. But a point I would like to hear peoples thoughts on. Do peoples skills/instincts become diminished for added protection being in place? If it is a legitmate safety improvement lets introduce it. But Lets not be do gooders who need to wrap everyone and everything in cotton wool. Next we will have safety bases and the infield will be covered in cotton wool. People have referred to cricket a bit in this thread. I was a cricketer for 20 years before coming into baseball. The addition of the protection, in my mind has diminished a lot of skills. If a player has all the protection at their disposal they are not relying on the instincts and training that is put in place. Does everybody remember Steven Waugh fending off bouncer after bouncer? Easy to do when you have gloves, thigh pad, chest pad, helmet. Look at the blokes that played in the years before him. Dean Jones, Alan Border, Viv Richards, Clive Lloyd. One thing that sticks in my mind is that they were all great hookers and pullers of the ball. All had to learn to avoid the ball or get hit. Justin langer? how many times did he get drilled in the head? Grew up wearing a helmet? Never learned proper technique. My point being, if the protection is not there, than survival mode comes into play and you train these instincts accordingly. Those with kids, when your kid picks up a ball to throw to you. what do you do? Natural reaction, first thing you do is cover your nuts and your face. If you had a cup and a helmet would you bother? I used to wear a mouth guard when I played footy and basketball, as there is is contact in those sports. Errant elbows and the like. You can't train for that. I was a wicket keeper for 15 years on turf and kept up to the stumps for a lot of my career, including to opening bowlers. Never wore a helmet or a mouthguard. But I spent many a night at training in the nets watching bowlers/batsmen and the movements so that come game time I was confident enough in my ability to do it and be safe while doing it. If I was in need to go out and play third base with a mouth guard i would suggest that a lot more ground balls at training are required. Got a glove use it. I know a bloke who got to triple A level and has never worn a cup. He says I got a glove. While I accept your reasoning, I don't know if it applies in this case. Getting hit with a genuinely quick bouncer on the helmet is still something no batsman enjoys; they still instinctively avoid bouncers. If someone swings a Nerf bat at your head, you'll still avoid it instinctively because you don't want it to hit you, even though you know it won't kill or barely even hurt you (if at all). All of the great hookers and pullers you mention wore helmets, with the exception of Viv Richards. Ricky Ponting is a great hooker and puller and grew up in the helmets-for-kids era. May I suggest that the reasons for less hooking and pulling include: less matting, malthoid and other higher-bounce pitches, restrictions on bouncers per over (or at all in younger age groups) and therefore less imperative to play shots to score runs from these deliveries? Back on topic: I would gladly pitch in a helmet if it was effective and was not an imposition on my mechanics.
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Post by gj on Nov 3, 2012 13:05:29 GMT 10
Many years ago the VPBL senior team played some practice games against the vic 18s. Dom Ruggerio was in the 18's that year. Terry Reid with the provincials hit a come backer that hit the young kid throwing in the forehead before he had a chance to move. Kid went down like a sack, but luckily was not hurt. Could only have been inches from something far worse. Terry hit the ball very hard. Saw Ken Gosstray from Preston hit Geoff Cull in the throat. Hit the ground convulsing. Sickening sight. Got up after a while and threw to the next hitter, Deebs, who hit one past his year. Cullys throat then started to swell and cut off air. Went to hospital but luckily Ok. As per other post Mick Alldis breaking guys hand in Worlds. Maybe I,ve been unlucky to have seen some nasty ones but I think I,m lucky I,ve seen no one killed
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bp34
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by bp34 on Nov 3, 2012 19:40:44 GMT 10
You have to understand that the reaction time of the pitcher is different depending on the level that they are playing. You are mostly talking about one the higher grades where the reaction time of a pitcher should be at it greatest. In lower grade where tin is used reaction of the pitcher is slower and the ball speed from the bat is greater. A 50 plus pitcher is just about the same as a 16 year old in reflexes. I have looked in the rule book and there is no rules stating what a pitcher protects himself with. If you want to wear a mouth guard or shin pads under your socks do so it's your choice . I know a catcher that did not wear shin pads or a box for over 40 years , his choice , not a rule. Mostly the come backers occur in the lower grades and to elevate this problem would be to get rid of the tin bat
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Post by larry42 on Nov 7, 2012 10:28:02 GMT 10
Just something off the ESPN web site. Doesn't refer to much on this thread but the changing way of the game/leagues on concussion.
NEW YORK -- New Orleans Hornets coach Monty Williams was fined $25,000 by the NBA on Tuesday for public comments criticizing the league's concussion policy.
Williams made the comments Saturday night in Chicago before the Hornets faced the Bulls with first overall draft pick Anthony Davis sidelined by a mild concussion.
Williams blasted the NBA's protocols for determining when a player can return from a concussion, saying, "Now, they treat everybody like they have white gloves and pink drawers and it's getting old. It's just the way the league is now."
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Post by barb05 on Nov 12, 2012 20:27:59 GMT 10
Marshy, you don't provide team helmets, but you have a team jock strap? I probably wouldn't use it either, but good you've got the option, I guess. We used to have one... But Millsy retired last season.
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Post by barb05 on Nov 12, 2012 20:47:22 GMT 10
That line umpires aren't wearing them, when base coaches are required to, is already contradictory.
I mean seriously, I've seen two umpires tagged with line drives this season already, and that's in the 2s (so the more experienced and seasoned umpire is the one getting peppered - {sorry I couldn't help myself}).
If the pitcher has to wear one, why not 1b and 3b in case of a slap bunt... Where does it end?
There's a reason we have more than one division and why it's important for players to develop at each level.
Btw... Here's a Scenario... "Welcome to our you beaut Aussie club Mr. Seppo. Here's you uniform top, hat, pitching helmet, mouth guard and the team jockstrap."
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Post by wako on Nov 12, 2012 20:57:15 GMT 10
Btw... Here's a Scenario... "Welcome to our you beaut Aussie club Mr. Seppo. Here's you uniform top, hat, pitching helmet, mouth guard and the team jockstrap." "You'd better put it on...disparaging the team jockstrap is a bootable offence!"
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Post by larry42 on Dec 24, 2012 9:10:40 GMT 10
Here's hoping a young Melbourne U12 player won't wake up with too much of a splitting headache this morning. Took a line drive comebacker off the shoulder then up to the side of the head. Came out of the game. His dad mentioned that he was ok but a little sore last night. Could have been a lot worse.
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today
New Member
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Post by today on Dec 29, 2012 3:27:53 GMT 10
As a pitcher, I would sign *anything* waiving my rights to sue/claim/whatever rather than play with a helmet; or failing that, I would actually rather quit baseball.
I love it more than anything, but this is getting ridiculous. Base-coaches are one thing, but pitchers? Get real.
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Post by perfeckt on Dec 29, 2012 9:32:57 GMT 10
Used to be helmets for motor bikes...NO. Seat belts for cars...NO. etc....! I'm all for freedom of choice and think that we are already over regulated but going into a sports store in the U.S. recently I discovered in the junior section of the baseball section that most of the helmets had grills (ala cricket grills) for the kids batting, fielding and pitching. I don't know of any compulsory regulation there but the selling point was clear enough. There was more of those style of helmet than the ones without a face guard.
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