Division 2 & 22 game season

[Coalmined]

A point that may have glossed over with the division 2 draw taking a while to be finalised. A while back there was a few year plan in regards to game numbers to be played that was to be reviewed.(has this been done?)
With division 2 now being a 22 game season, what are the ramifications of this?

Personally I was involved with a divvy 2 club with a 26 game season in 2010-2011. Next year (2011-2012) was at a club in divvy 1 and a 33 game season. While I was involved in coaching and part time playing, I realised a bigger commitment involved to go between divisions. From memory at one stage last year we played 9 games in a 26 day period. Mix in training and full time job it is full on. Not that the keen baseballer would ever find issue with that.

With no mid week games in divvy 2 this year I can see possible ramifications where a club/players to be promoted may struggle.

No mid week games? Possibly 1 quality pitcher/import can throw you to the top of the ladder/promotion. (have the restrictions been placed back on non nationals pitching back to back games)

From what I have seen of divvy 1 games/season you need a strong squad of players to utilise with 3-5 quality chuckers to get through a season. In divvy 2 this year you could possibly get through a season with a decent 1st team with 1 decent arm/import and reliever. (ideal scenario)

Is this creating a large divide between divvy 1 and divvy 2 . Making it harder for promoted clubs to stay up and prosper.

I don't think the jump from a 26 to 33 game season can be underestimated. I think the jump from 22 to 33 games is a big ask.

I have only been involved with summer baseball for a few years. I am unsure if this is always the way it has been or whether it has only changed for the last few years.


I am constantly on reading this forum and the BV/Summer league Website. Have I missed a memo on going back to a 22 games season?

I am interested in peoples thoughts. Whether they agree or whether I have missed some information somewhere?

[Camov]

Interesting points Coalmined.

as a div 2 club we are itching to play more games and have actually organised a mid week series with newport to play 6 games over the season to fill the mid week void.

i think the 11 game gap is a significant divide not just on pitching but also being able to get a solid 10+ guys to a midweek game and may provide a barrier for clubs looking to push up in the future.

As for the import restriction it was not introduced so imports are free to throw as many innings as their club wishes.

this may also add to the divide as div 2 is shaping up to be very competitive this year with fewer opportunities to utilise developing pitchers as you often need to rely on your ace.

The lack of mid week games will also likely see the percentage of innings thrown by imports in div 2 increasing dramatically as clubs seek to get value for money starting them most weeks.

a handful of clubs had their imports throw 60-70% of their innings for the season (as they are entitled to) so without mid weekers i can only envision that percentage going up.

as far as bridging the gap between div 1 and div 2, someone once told me the best way to go about it was to be a division 1 club playing in division 2.

i think melbourne showed the way over the last few seasons, they were a stand out team in div 2 the year before they went up and were a standout team in division 1.

[4crownies]

Oct 19, 2012 22:02:59 GMT 10 Camov said:

Interesting points Coalmined.

as a div 2 club we are itching to play more games and have actually organised a mid week series with newport to play 6 games over the season to fill the mid week void.

Just out of interest, are these games approved by the league?
I'm looking at it from an insurance point of view

[doublexx]

Hey Mov - are these games sanctioned by BV/ABF? Just asking as a I know your coach has a mate who is "Blackballed." would he be able to play - what if either of your clubs has a suspended player are they able to play? Just asking!!!

[wyatt33]

Personally I don't think we play enough games of baseball, full stop! Div 1 or 2. You look at the us and Japan, and I'd reckon there's a min 50 game season, across most comps. I'd have thought the more games played, the more clubs would have to develope pitching, and maybe guys that have never been pitchers are given a chance to throw. And with every club in the same boat it wouldn't affect one club more than the next, any differently than now.

[thehotcorner]

Oct 20, 2012 12:14:22 GMT 10 wyatt33 said:

You look at the us and Japan, and I'd reckon there's a min 50 game season, across most comps.

Even amateur comps where majority of players are also holding down a full time job?

[Camov]

From my interpretation. both individual and public liability insurance would be in effect

as these practice games would fall under:

b) Organised training or practice sessions.

they could also be justified as fundraising or social exercises if required.

that said its probably worth shooting an email over to B.V. so thanks for the general concern
and i will follow it up.

Dean has been the brains behind this practice series and i know that Grant has been very supportive in working to get more baseball exposure for both our clubs.
(we had a great practice game against Newport pre season and the level of support from across the club was fantastic)

other issues such as this mystery player would fall to the discretion of the coaches, but im not buying into that one.

best of luck to everyone today!

[scam]

Camov, you guys and Newport will be much better for it. Definitely something we will need to look at as the season progresses.
As has been said though, make sure you check the insurance issues. My recollection of a meeting with BV a year or so ago was that the players insurance only covers "officially sanctioned games and training sessions". You could call these scratch matches "training sessions" if you like but I think it would be best if you involve BV just to cover yourselves. The last thing you want is for an injury to occur and then have the injured party having to fight the fine print of the policy.

The issue that I think is the biggest oversight with rolling back Div 2 to 22 games with no mid-weekers is this-
We play every 7 days during the regular season (maybe 6 if you have switched a game to a Saturday) yet come the play-offs, they are a best of 3 series with a game on Tuesday, Saturday and Sunday if required.
So, during a regular season where you could get away with using the one starting pitcher all season and then someone in relief (maybe 2 or 3 innings a week but potentially less), these clubs will no doubt struggle come the play-offs where you will need at least 2 starting pitchers plus multiple relief guys.

This raises a few questions for me-
1. How is this of benefit to clubs who will potentially be promoted to Div 1 the following season? The gap between the divisions is now increased even more.

2. Will this potentially mean that clubs with a list that could succeed in Div 1 (multiple decent pitchers) may not even make the play-offs because another club with a superstar starter use their guy 8-9 innings a week and win more games (but come finals or the following year with mid-week games, cannot maintain a consistent result).

3. How does this help Div 2 clubs retain quality pitchers when there are simply not enough games to share starts around. Will we see import pitchers rotated through Div 2 seconds to ensure that other starting pitchers can get their work in against the best hitters at opposing clubs? I doubt it (and would be a very expensive 2's player too...).

I know from my own personal experience, the more I pitched the better the result (consistent at hitting spots, off-speed pitchers with good movement etc). For some of the serious guys (including imports), once a week is barely enough and will throw at least 2 bullpens during the week. But that then leaves no room for the other guys.

And one last point, you can throw all the bullpens in the world, but nothing compares to the real thing on the field with a hitter, umpire, runners and 7 guys in the field behind you.

[aueagle30]

On the point of import pitching restrictions, I sat on the committee that lifted the restrictions on imports a few years back.

One of the considerations at the time was the increased number of games for both D1 and D2 created an organic restriction on pitchers, i.e. the more games played in week, the less chance of a pitcher being able to consistently pitch in every game.

I have been one of the most ardent critics of pitching restrictions on imports however, with the shift back to one game per week, quality of a team will be determined by quality of the pitching outing each week. I think restrictions should be re-introduced for D2, but not only for import pitching, all pitchers... 40+ outings prevent a pitcher from pitching in consecutive games.

Forces all teams to continue to develop pitchers... puts priority on teams having mulitple pitchers, not just one.

I'm sure you'll think I'm loco, but is there really a if a team uses the same pitcher every week in a once-per-week competition just because that pitcher is Australian?

The negative impacts of using that pitcher 8 innings per week... lack of opportunity for other pitchers, unfair advantage to teams without dominant pitchers (these are often the reasons for wanting pitching restrictions on imports)... are the same no matter what country he comes from.

[aueagle30]

22 games isn't enough... D2 should have more.

D1 play enough games, but could play more... what hurts us is the length of the season... six months is far too long for us to be committed to playing baseball.

Yes, Japan and US both have amatuer leagues where players (who have families and full-time jobs) play 40-60 games... difference being, the leagues last three months.

Players then have nine months to be focused on other priorities... When I tell my friends we play 33 games in six months, the think we've lost our minds.

[oldmanriver]

Just a quick thought and a look at the calender. Div 1 could play 49 games between the first Sunday in October through to the last Wednesday in Feb. That would included playing Sunday and Wednesdays and every second Saturday. The finals would be starting in March.
Div 2 would play along the same lines except no saturdays and still play 39 games.
Just food for thought. And not one game would have to be played at MPB unless by prior arrangement because of travel time for midweek games.

[sueridgpipe]

Go easy lads this little black duck is going to struggle getting through 22! i dont get out of the wheelchair as it is until thursday morning! ;D ;D ;D

[stockley]

Omr, please tell me your having a lend!

I love baseball. Look forward to it every week. But I have a life and family outside of baseball.

Adding extra games will do nothing to attract or retain player's. It will however push guys like me away from the sport!

Not every person. Playing in div 1/2 is trying to get overseas to play. In fact the vast majority are not. We have jobs. Families. You want us to give up our whole weekend every second week???

Sent from my GT-I9300T using proboards

[oldmanriver]

Don't Panic, I was just filling in time between phone calls. It would be ludicrous to have that many games and not have the divorce rate soar. But suprisingly, there are people who would go for it. Now that is the scary part of it. Quite frankly, I think the 14 games the Masters play is possibly a couple to many for some of our aging hammy's. Just don't let BV get wind of it, they may think it is a good idea.

[lonewolf75]

If we had a shorter season, one game on the weekend and maybe two midweek games I would be able to get a leave pass to play again. It was the loss of a whole day over the full season that used to Sh!t the family.
Having said all this. What about the lower grades.

[Coalmined]

Does any body know how the 22 game season came about? Maybe might be something Aueagle might be able to shed some light on. Was it a fixturing issue?(with club promotion/relegtion/withdrawing?)
Was it always the plan to have a 22 game season with no mid week games? If so who had a say on this? also the reasoning behind this. Who was consulted in the decision making process for this to happen?
The more people I speak to about this re bemused that it has happened and there hasn't seemed to be any communication as to why the division 2 setup has changed. Whilst Division 1 as stayed the same/

[mackem]

Oct 26, 2012 19:44:50 GMT 10 Coalmined said:

Does any body know how the 22 game season came about? Maybe might be something Aueagle might be able to shed some light on. Was it a fixturing issue?(with club promotion/relegtion/withdrawing?)
Was it always the plan to have a 22 game season with no mid week games? If so who had a say on this? also the reasoning behind this. Who was consulted in the decision making process for this to happen?
The more people I speak to about this re bemused that it has happened and there hasn't seemed to be any communication as to why the division 2 setup has changed. Whilst Division 1 as stayed the same/

The reason for a 22 game season for Div 2 is because there is 2 less teams in Div 2 than the last 2 years (Waverley Wildcats & Ormond Glen Huntly have dropped out of the division making only 12 teams)

It has to do in some part the junior criteria.

[Coalmined]

Mackem, That makes perfect sense. Why Is something that simple been missed by not only myself but a lot of people I have spoken to as well.
Obviously I only drive the rockets, not build them.

[mackem]

Coalmined, Maybe you should get your committee to communicate with the players better as a memo was sent out from BV explaining everything.

I suppose that unless your club is in Div 2 then they didn't give it a thought.

[The Puma]

mackem, the memo you refer to was sent out in round 3. Changes like thus should have been finalised in July not October and there was no consultation with the clubs regarding this.

The point you seem to have missed is the now massive leap between division one and two.

[pirates]

should look at the idea that seems to come up often that being put the two divs together and split the groups into east and west. each div plays off for a flag and the 2 winners play off for a state flag. less player movement as a club could build to be competitive each season without players saying they want to play div one. same with juniors its crazy to have juniors driving around the state for home and away games. At least split them east and west.

[oj]

Could have been finalised in July and positive it would have been if teams didn't pull out and make late changes. Can't blame BV for that. Up to the clubs to be on time and accurate with numbers and team lists.

Surprising nobody has mentioned ideas of a double-header if more games is what people want.

[oldmanriver]

Pirates, you are definately on the something with your East/West, go one step further and open the competition right up and go north/south/east/west and open it up for all Clubs to compete. Then have a morotorium on player transfers for 2 seasons and see how the comp pans out. And the Juniors coould be run along the same lines. One easy comp to manage and organize. Finals would be similar to the Yankee system with the top two playing off from each section with the winners then playing each other and finally the last two teams standing playing off forthe big one. Pretty simple and it allows the smaller clubs to grow and keep there better juniors rather than losing them to the bigger Clubs. Less organization required and probably cheaper to run as only two people would be required to administer the League with the help ic Club input. Just a thought to evening up the world of BV

[aueagle30]

My understanding... there's already a competition that's split on regional localities, all that's missing is the playoff structure... it's called Winter Baseball.

The summer competition is a STATE LEAGUE... the players I know play because they want the challenge of playing the best teams each week, not just those close to them.

From the club with the greatest travel burden in the competition, we recruit more players on the context of playing good baseball than we lose on the disincentive of travel.

Please don't diminish the STATE LEAGUE by creating a competition where you can only play the best competition in the playoffs.

[oldmanriver]

aueagle30, you wouldn't just playing in the one section, there would be cross section play and would still have about 30 to 35 games played. If this is a state league as you so wish to put it, why is only metropolitan plus one regional team. That is definately not a state league.
I suggest that you keep your head in the sand until you can grab the rationale of what is being suggested. As my old pappy used to say, don't speak or type what people are thinking as it only confirms what they are really thinking. If you think that it is the best competition, you may be right, but let's see how these clubs would go if it only relied on home grown talent and not poaching or recruiting from the smaller or clubs in a lesser division. I think and do know that the landscape would probably be different. Open your eyes and allow imagination to place instead of holding onto ancient beliefs that haven't changed for over 25 years.

[aueagle30]

OMR, if you're suggesting the Summer League isn't the best competition, I'm interested in which competition you think is?

If I was living in Mildura, or Sale, or Warrnambool, and I wanted to enter a team into a Victorian-based competition during the summer, can you please tell me what competition I would enter? I would have thought if I only had one choice, that would make it a state league?

And are you suggesting the free movement of players between clubs is what's holding the league back? Are you suggesting this movement of players should be halted?

[oldmanriver]

eagle, I didn't say it isn't the best competition, I said that it is not a state league. What I maybe suggesting is, if Div 1 clubs didn't go around poaching players from lesser divisions I would be interested to see how it would all pan out. The same would go for recruiting players from div 1 to div 2. I do believe then you would have a clearer picture of what clubs are on the right path and what clubs are on the easy path. The movement of players would have to be collective discussion among all clubs for a resolution to happen. I do realise the logistics of having regional teams does make it impossible for these teams to be involved in the summer league, but we do have the winter championships that used to be the old VPBL championships that generally decided who was the best regional team for that year. It is a pity that that championship must be decided over a long weekend and not over a week.

[rebelwithoutaclue]

Has any thought been given to replaying of washed out games for Division 2 now?

Now that there are no midweekers, there would be plenty of opportunity to make these up.

[aueagle30]

I am confused... I try really hard to read through the posts on here and understand what people are saying... sometimes it's really hard, especially when the messages seem so... what's the word for it...

Oct 29, 2012 7:25:10 GMT 10 oldmanriver said:

... have a morotorium on player transfers for 2 seasons and see how the comp pans out. And the Juniors coould be run along the same lines. Pretty simple and it allows the smaller clubs to grow and keep there better juniors rather than losing them to the bigger Clubs.

Oct 8, 2012 7:10:12 GMT 10 oldmanriver said:

The player has the legal right to play where he/she wishes play... Even my son chose to play at Cheltenham(but that's another story).

It always is...

Oct 29, 2012 11:08:22 GMT 10 oldmanriver said:

What I maybe suggesting is, if Div 1 clubs didn't go around poaching players from lesser divisions I would be interested to see how it would all pan out.

Well, to start with, your son wouldn't be at Cheltenham...

Oct 8, 2012 7:10:12 GMT 10 oldmanriver said:

The Club can ask the player to meet the committee and explain why, but that is about the all the Club can do. It is probably about time some clubs lost their pettiness and just play the game and stop being a general bunch of a#$eholes and at times holding back the sport in it's growth.

Oct 29, 2012 10:28:21 GMT 10 oldmanriver said:

... but let's see how these clubs would go if it only relied on home grown talent and not poaching or recruiting from the smaller or clubs in a lesser division. I think and do know that the landscape would probably be different.

Can you see why maybe I have trouble understanding what it is you're calling for... does allowing players to freely move improve our sport, or should we be stopping them... I'm confused.

Perhaps we could make it that every player cleared in the past two years has to return to their previous club... at least then you could be the bearer of the standard you're claiming everyone else should be held to?

And it's not impossible for regional teams to play in the State League... it's difficult, there are added burdens, but it's being done successfully in Geelong.

And VPBL tournaments? Please, they're so, like, 25-years ago... some would call them 'ancient'!

[wako]

A regional division system would result in arguments about where the lines should be drawn and some regions being easier/harder than others. Players would still move between clubs either to play at a club more likely to win in the region the player lives in, a club more likely to win in another region, a club in the same region less likely to win but providing more opportunities, etc. Haves and have nots would still exist.

Ballarat may enter Summer League next season, and we might have even more regional clubs in our state league if it weren't for all those d**n city clubs poaching regional players...something should be done!