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Post by aueagle30 on Jan 20, 2012 16:49:45 GMT 10
As I mentioned in a post yesterday, there have been a staggering number of ejections this season... according to the tribunal records, we surpassed last seasons number before the Christmas break. Why?
Did we become a raving bunch of lunatics over the winter?
Has the new Director of Umpires instructed his men to take less crap this season?
One thing I've noticed has become a common occurance is for teams to name someone other than the 'club coach' as the game day manager on the line up sheet. My understanding is most clubs now do this to avoid the actual manager being ejected on the zero tolerance policy.
I believe I'm the only current manager who was managing at the time the zero tolerance policy was introduced. Prior to the introduction of the policy, the umpires and BV sat down with all the managers and asked for our feedback. The managers were very strong in the opinion that if used correctly, the policy could improve the standard of behaviour, but we were concerned it would be used simply as a double punishment.
It was agreed that umpires and managers would work together to implement to policy properly... on this basis, the managers at the meeting unanimously supported the policy.
In the early days of the policy, umpires would inform the manager when a player was pushing the boundaries, and, in my experience, managers reacted by taking control of the player in question. My most recent experience is very different... umpires no longer seem willing to warn a manager before ejecting the player.
Has the trend of managers not naming themselves on the line-up sheet sent a message to the umpires we no longer take the policy seriously? Has this escape clause resulted in managers taking less responsibility for our players?
As managers, and as players, we must take more responsibility for our behaviour. Perhaps if more managers take responsibility by writing their name on the line-up sheet, umpires will take a more co-operative position and we can keep more players on the park.
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Post by wyatt33 on Jan 20, 2012 18:05:30 GMT 10
Maybe managers have resorted to this practice because the ridiculous attitude of some of the umpires. That is the responsible thing to do by the team and the club. I agree that it's good for umpires to control the game, and the behavior, but when most of them are unapproachable, especially when it comes to questioning a call, well sometimes it's a two edged sword. We've all seen umpires overreact to a situation, and a red card is pulled when maybe a cooler head would prevail.
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Post by ramsrus2 on Jan 21, 2012 11:04:55 GMT 10
I am all in favour of discipline and respect of umpires, but I do not support the umpire is never wrong expectation. At the recent Nationals in Geelong a mistake was made by an umpire who when asked by a coach to seek help from the plate umpire refused. This resulted in among a more serious consequence, the fielder being errored when no error was made and the opposing team then scoring I think 4 runs after the batter should have been called out. Why is it that an umpire can refuse to ask a plate umpire for help? Surely the primary aim is to get the call right? Every person involved in baseball should be accountable for what they do. When a fielder makes a mistake they get an error, when a batter makes a mistake they are normally out, why is there no consequence for umpires making mistakes? When a coach questions a decision (not talking about balls and strikes here), all the umpires should consult with primary aim in mind to get the call right. Scorers have to consult on hits vs errors, WP vs PB etc, refusing a request to consult is just arrogance - that's my personal opinion.
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Post by p8 on Jan 21, 2012 20:58:07 GMT 10
wyatt33 quote I agree that it's good for umpires to control the game, and the behavior, but when most of them are unapproachable, especially when it comes to questioning a call, well sometimes it's a two edged sword.
Firstly this appears a generalisation without evidence and secondly why are judgment calls being questioned. More often it is to show up the umpire because you believe that he got the call wrong. The only reason to approach the umpire is if you consider that he was in a difficult position and his partner may be able to assist him to get an obviously missed call correct or to get a rule interpretation. Otherwise why question the call. Also some managers/coaches see it as their god given right to question any close call (judgment) and then wonder why an umpire becomes unapproachable.
Ramsrus2 quote ….When a coach questions a decision (not talking about balls and strikes here), all the umpires should consult with primary aim in mind to get the call right.
You would have noticed on a number of occasions at the Nationals that the umpires (Three umpire system) conferred when asked by the manager. Your incident sounds more the exception rather than the rule.
And aueagle30 I agree with your comments but in looking up the same stats I did notice that ejections for AOL seems to rank high so unless preventative action is taken by managers ie some less offensive words are taught to players then these ejections will continue.
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Post by aueagle30 on Jan 30, 2012 9:52:26 GMT 10
Wyatt33, ramsrus2... It's too easy to turn the blame onto the umpires... at the end of the day, players and managers can't control how umpires react or respond.
I've spent nine seasons as manager cultivating what I regard as a strong relationship with all the umpires... I hope most of the umpires agree that we have a great working relationship, and some would even go as far as to call it a friendship... that doesn't mean I don't expect them to never make a mistake or act like a jerk (like any other relationship I have in my life)... and I hope it means they don't expect me to never be a jerk. We will all stuff up and, at times, we'll all handle a given situation poorly.
The purpose of my post was to ask more manager to control what they can... they're own actions. Writing your name on the line up card shows you're prepared to be responsible for the entire teams behaviour and, I believe, shows the umpires respect right from the plate meeting.
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Post by ramsrus2 on Jan 30, 2012 12:52:56 GMT 10
aueagle30, with all due respect, were you there? Did you see the incident and the resulting consequence? My whole point is about taking responsibility for your actions, admitting mistakes and asking for help. In this specific example, the umpire did not take responsibility, admit a mistake or ask for help. I don't want to control how umpires react, I just want them to do what they expect everyone else in baseball to do, what you are suggesting Wyatt33 and I should do, not blame others for your mistakes.
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Post by gj on Jan 30, 2012 17:22:18 GMT 10
An incident from a couple of years back at the senior Provincials. Play at the plate, runner barrels catcher. Pitcher backing up plate, on deck batter coaching in runner. Catcher comes up with ball - out. Some chest to chest between runner and catcher with a few words said - both coaches quickly up to stop any escalation by bench players. First base umpire came down after play and tossed pitcher for attempted striking (he gave an f off fist pump) and the on deck batter for being the first off the bench to join melee (he used the melee term loosely). Home plate umpire despite being in the middle of it all saw nothing untoward. Both coaches went on zero tolerance. Umpire refused to discuss with either coach. Judiciary held, umpire never turned up knowing he was in for a tough night. No accountability for an umpire stuffing up one of the biggest games of the tournament. Zero tolerance enforcement at its worse.
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Post by aueagle30 on Jan 31, 2012 11:49:27 GMT 10
I am all in favour of discipline and respect of umpires, but I do not support the umpire is never wrong expectation. Meaning what, when they make a mistake or don't accept your assessment they're wrong, you're all in favour of poor behaviour and disrespect of umpires? Why is it that an umpire can refuse to ask a plate umpire for help? Surely the primary aim is to get the call right? Umpires only confer if they believe they may not have seen something or are unsure on the proper application of the rule... not because they're asked... therefore, there is no such thing as an umpire refusing to consult. And the primary aim is for the umpire to get the call right, as he sees it... not as you, a fan, a manager or player sees it. ...why is there no consequence for umpires making mistakes? Just because you don't see the consequences, doesn't mean they don't happen... If the incident you're referring to was an umpire's error, I would suggest the umpire would have been educated by the umpire's director that was at every game, assessing and educating all umpires at the tournament... if the umpire in question had shown no improvement, I'm sure it would have impacted his assignments later in the tournament and perhaps for future tournaments. When a coach questions a decision (not talking about balls and strikes here), all the umpires should consult with primary aim in mind to get the call right. Is this based on your assumption that every time a coach questions an umpire, the coach is always correct and the umpire is always wrong? If not, who is to decide when the umpire can say no to consulting... you? And, if a blanket policy of consulting every time a coach requested was implemented, how many coaches would abuse the policy? How much longer would a game take? aueagle30, with all due respect, were you there? Did you see the incident and the resulting consequence? Was I there? Since I worked at the field for 12-16 hours every day of the tournament, I would say yes, I probably was. Did I see the incident? No. Can I still poke holes in your theory that there is no consequence for umpires that make mistakes and they should always consult other umpires when approached by managers? Absolutely. I'm sure all of us can highlight a single incident, as you have, and use it to demonstrate our point. But, a single incident is never truly reflective of any general issue. I started this post to address what I've seen as a systematic avoidance of responsiblity by Division One managers by not listing themselves as the manager on the team sheet. This simple act, for which each manager is responsible, will show the umpires we're working together respectfully and should set a high standard of personal responsibility for our players. I agree we should hold our umpires to high standards... but, with all due respect, it's a little hypocritical to not hold ourselves to high standards first, isn't it? Sorry for length...
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Post by aueagle30 on Jan 31, 2012 11:58:15 GMT 10
gj... Zero tolerance in the Summer League only applies to offences directed toward an umpire (arguing balls and strikes, abusing an umpire, etc)... My understanding, and I could be wrong, is dissent was removed this year because it generally constitued a low-level act toward an umpire.
Such an incident as you described wouldn't require managers to be ejected on zero tolerance policy in the BV Summer League.
At it's best, zero tolerance puts the responsibility of player behaviour back on to the manager. Through my own experience, in the first couple of years of the policy, I have seen player behaviour improve as a result, in part, of the zero tolerance policy.
I hope more manager's take on the responsibility of managing their players behaviour.
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Post by ramsrus2 on Jan 31, 2012 13:47:11 GMT 10
aueagle30, I wrote some indignant replies to each of your responses to my comments, but I have deleted them as they added no value whatsoever.
My view is that everything possible should be done to limit mistakes made by all involved in the game. I did make a statement that there are no consequences for umpires when they make mistakes. You have educated me as far as that goes, so I am now no longer ignorant as to the potential consequences.
I will agree to disagree with you as far as the topic of consultation is concerned. My view still is that not consulting when asked by a coach, who does not make a habit of asking for consultancy, is just fuelling the fire and goes against the aim of limiting mistakes and getting an accurate result. This to me is logical and reasonable, irrespective of what the text book says or the umpiring classes teach.
I concede that this was one incident as I have seen umpires consult when asked.
I would hope that people who know me do not think I am ‘hypocritical’ and ‘do not hold myself to high standards first’, because if they do think the above, I might just have to commit ‘hari kari’ LOL.
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Post by aueagle30 on Jan 31, 2012 14:52:35 GMT 10
aueagle30, I wrote some indignant replies to each of your responses to my comments, but I have deleted them as they added no value whatsoever. Aw, too bad... indignant is fun... I guess we all value things differently! See, fun! HA! I would hope that people who know me do not think I am ‘hypocritical’ and ‘do not hold myself to high standards first’, because if they do think the above, I might just have to commit ‘hari kari’ LOL. I apologise if you thought I was labelling you specifically as hypocritical... I was talking generally about managers, including myself, who have the opportunity to work directly with the umpires. Please don't hurt yourself... I'd have to find someone else to direct my indignation at!
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Post by rhricho on Jan 31, 2012 14:55:47 GMT 10
aueagle30, I wrote some indignant replies to each of your responses to my comments, but I have deleted them as they added no value whatsoever. My view is that everything possible should be done to limit mistakes made by all involved in the game. I did make a statement that there are no consequences for umpires when they make mistakes. You have educated me as far as that goes, so I am now no longer ignorant as to the potential consequences. I will agree to disagree with you as far as the topic of consultation is concerned. My view still is that not consulting when asked by a coach, who does not make a habit of asking for consultancy, is just fuelling the fire and goes against the aim of limiting mistakes and getting an accurate result. This to me is logical and reasonable, irrespective of what the text book says or the umpiring classes teach. I concede that this was one incident as I have seen umpires consult when asked. I would hope that people who know me do not think I am ‘hypocritical’ and ‘do not hold myself to high standards first’, because if they do think the above, I might just have to commit ‘hari kari’ LOL. Rams I like to add something here and maybe it may mean something to you, maybe not - If I was a umpire and somebody came straight up to me suggesting I got that call wrong and I need to get some help - with absolutely not level of respect or any means of perhaps respectfully explaining what I may have missed, then I'd tell them quite happily 2 take a seat - if things escalated more.. C ya! your gone! The amount of time's last season I questioned a call to an umpire and went to confront them respectfully - they were completely thrown back as they were expecting a hostile conversation! Where was that going to get me?? Is this how everyone talks to them? where will it get U? yeh they make mistakes as do I on the field but talking to someone like crap is a joke and shows how much of a small person you are IMO! (this goes both ways also, not all umpires are like this!) I had 2 guys ejected last yr and I was an automatic ejection with them as soon as the incident occured - Now after I spoke to the umpire again with respect - I got to stay and play. I think a lot of players or coaches forget - you cannot question a judgement call, but you can ask if they saw something different that you may have. This isn't a stupid topic - some just do not understand the game. We all get heated and play the game hard at times, but the amount of times I see ppl complain and then absolutely give it to the umpire - EVEN AFTER IT WAS PROBABLY A MORAL OUT ALSO - is ridiculous! I was playing a game for the matoes yrs back and my old man was line umpiring that game - he got shirt fronted by a player due to a bad call at 2b. The next at bat that guy had with me about a yr ago later, well hmmmmm - i'll let you work out where that pitch went!!! GJ - I remember that game very well and how extremely badly handled it was. The CNSW and VICPROV play very hard against each other but with the upmost respect also - something the umpires clearly new nothing about, but panic set in and control went out the window! The event surely was going to be settled over pints @ the HoneyPot anyways!! a place they were never going to be asked to come 2! I think zero tolerance is a joke - but if it give these coaches I have mentioned above more confidence to be even more aggressive then perhaps it should stay. I dont think it's as clear cut as perhaps it is being argued!
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Post by eckersley43 on Feb 5, 2012 21:11:09 GMT 10
Re consequences for bad umpiring decisions..they do exist. Unlike players who can atone for mistakes with good play later, an umpire can never be happy with a bad call, nor can it be evened up...and yes, umpires can recognise mistakes. Unfortunately a "doubt" on a call is no basis for changing a decision..most controversial calls are on plays with centimetres or split second margins.For most calls consultation is not useful as the "other" umpire is in a poor position, and unable to suggest a reversal. In effect a "poor call" is then visited on the other umpire.More importantly the aggrieved manager suffering a "reversal" will argue how could you advise a changed decision from your position! Apart from "swipe tags" on batter runners there are few instances when the plate umpire can be in a position to be positive over a base umpires call.The best outcome is to analyse (e.g poor mechanic ) why the error may have been made and endeavour to learn from it. P.S.Players who blatantly try to influence decisions by running towards first base on full counts before the call, or celebrating swipe tags that miss by feet don't help the cause of umpiring. Manager civility to umpires is its own reward as you take more notice of credible managers who don't walk out just for the exercise. I don't agree with managers having to be ejected for players offences over which they have had no means of control. It alright in the majors where they have managerial staff to burn, but is really harsh especially on player managers who are doing their best to do the right thing but don't have full time highly paid players where they can exercise a much higher level of control. Finally I think it is for umpires to set the level of respect by example, so that they are not expecting any more than they give to managers and players.
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Post by perfeckt on Feb 5, 2012 21:33:02 GMT 10
Well said eckersley43.
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Post by ramsrus2 on Feb 6, 2012 10:28:31 GMT 10
Agree, well said eckersley43.
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