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Post by p26 on Sept 16, 2008 13:28:12 GMT 10
Thought I'd start up a dedicated thread to this issue rather than the half a dozen threads currently hijacked.
Personally, I think it's all a storm in a teacup. Most of the clubs being bashed for poaching players are having players move within the same circle.
For example, Blackburn, Doncaster and Malvern have been listed as prime offenders. Despite the fact that most of the players Blackburn have "stolen" actually come from Doncaster and Malvern.
A lot of div 2/3 teams are saying their players have been poached yet nobody can actually name any that have been for me after I asked the questions in the Div 3 thread.
Finally, clubs are being lambasted for paying players and not having the junior programs to back it up. Quite interesting though that if your club actually has a flourishing junior program then you probably have enough revenue being generated by fees and canteen usage to consider paying players and improving the standard of baseball played by your club.
It would be great if this thread could discuss the issues rather than degenerating in to finger pointing but I doubt this will happen. Let's just try to keep it civil.
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Post by p26 on Sept 16, 2008 13:32:17 GMT 10
Oh, can we move some of the off topic posts from other threads in here perhaps?
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Post by jetpilot on Sept 16, 2008 13:32:27 GMT 10
Thought I'd start up a dedicated thread to this issue rather than the half a dozen threads currently hijacked. Personally, I think it's all a storm in a teacup. Most of the clubs being bashed for poaching players are having players move within the same circle. For example, Blackburn, Doncaster and Malvern have been listed as prime offenders. Despite the fact that most of the players Blackburn have "stolen" actually come from Doncaster and Malvern. A lot of div 2/3 teams are saying their players have been poached yet nobody can actually name any that have been for me after I asked the questions in the Div 3 thread. Finally, clubs are being lambasted for paying players and not having the junior programs to back it up. Quite interesting though that if your club actually has a flourishing junior program then you probably have enough revenue being generated by fees and canteen usage to consider paying players and improving the standard of baseball played by your club. It would be great if this thread could discuss the issues rather than degenerating in to finger pointing but I doubt this will happen. Let's just try to keep it civil. Paul Rutgers |
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Post by p26 on Sept 16, 2008 13:41:24 GMT 10
That was for a coaching role wasn't it? (haha) Interesting distinction though. There seems to be a proliferation of assistant coaches going around?
Also, do you think Pauly would have started approaching clubs rather than the other way around now that he's not playing indyball?
Is the issue who approached who, or that he is getting paid?
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Post by wildcat09 on Sept 16, 2008 13:42:21 GMT 10
Thought I'd start up a dedicated thread to this issue rather than the half a dozen threads currently hijacked. Personally, I think it's all a storm in a teacup. Most of the clubs being bashed for poaching players are having players move within the same circle. For example, Blackburn, Doncaster and Malvern have been listed as prime offenders. Despite the fact that most of the players Blackburn have "stolen" actually come from Doncaster and Malvern. A lot of div 2/3 teams are saying their players have been poached yet nobody can actually name any that have been for me after I asked the questions in the Div 3 thread. Finally, clubs are being lambasted for paying players and not having the junior programs to back it up. Quite interesting though that if your club actually has a flourishing junior program then you probably have enough revenue being generated by fees and canteen usage to consider paying players and improving the standard of baseball played by your club. It would be great if this thread could discuss the issues rather than degenerating in to finger pointing but I doubt this will happen. Let's just try to keep it civil. Paul Rutgers spot on JP! |
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Post by thefacts on Sept 16, 2008 13:43:06 GMT 10
You’re right, good luck to those clubs that can afford to pay there players, they must be doing well.
Although, I don’t know how much of the money comes directly from the club or from high profile members of those club who "assist players" with their fee payments.
As a player in the lower grade, I would never be happy with my fees going to pay a player in the 1s. Coaches yes, players NO! No unless they assist with juniors, umpiring and coaching, they can earn the money.
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Post by p26 on Sept 16, 2008 13:48:28 GMT 10
What about players who assist in getting your club to a higher standard of ball, thereby exposing your younger players to better baseball, ensuring they remain at the club rather than heading to a higher division club (like Rutgers- doubt he owuld have left Mulgrave if they were div 1) and developing them in to better ball players?
Are players of that ilk worth as much as a coach?
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Post by thefacts on Sept 16, 2008 13:58:47 GMT 10
I agree, although there are some clubs that are happy in the grade they are in. I think that the clubs should be in a position where there numbers are strong and they have a backing of sponsors before they look at paying players. The money to pay players should not come from the other players.
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Post by The Joker on Sept 16, 2008 14:48:50 GMT 10
Paying players to play = NO
Waving fees for first grade players = NO
Why should bottom-grade player who actually helps with off-field side of club be subsidising big-ego first grade player who only turns up each week to play with his mates and doesn't put in?
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Post by p26 on Sept 16, 2008 14:59:56 GMT 10
I'd argue that the "big-ego first grade player" does as much to ensure the club's success as the behind the scenes guys. Why?
Coming from a club that had a number of national leaguers in it's firsts squad when I was a junior, it was tremendously important for my development, and the players I grew up with that we had role models within the club and that our club played a high standard of ball.
Had that not been the case, as a junior in the state program I would have left to play at a club that did. It was just as important that I had top level players to train with and learn from as it was to have a canteen that was open on game days and a field that was good to play on.
It's nothing to do with ego when you're young. It's got to do with wanting to be the best player you can be. Often you can't do that if you haven't got good players to model yourself on or you are playing in a league that doesn't challenge you to improve.
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Post by The Joker on Sept 16, 2008 15:04:15 GMT 10
Junior players get nothing from senior players who kick them out of the batting cage and off the bullpen mound on training nights.
What do the kids learn when the first grade players finish training and wander up to sink piss while the crusty old club life member has to rake the diamond and put away all the equipment?
What do the kids learn from a first grade player who can't even name anyone in the second grade team let alone anyone playing in any of the other grades?
A broad brush maybe, bu minority sports can't afford primadonas...
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Post by p26 on Sept 16, 2008 15:10:05 GMT 10
Fair enough. Perhaps I've been lucky that the guys who were seniors when i was around 14/15 and starting to play at that level were extremely supportive and had quite a lot of time to help the younger guys out. I've never really had the experience that you are talking about above and I'd totally agree that guys like those you mention definitely aren't worth the cash.
However most of the guys I know that get paid are more likely to help. They might not turn up at junior training but will generally help the kids that turn up to seniors training each tuesday and thursday. Personally i think that's enough of an impact.
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Post by The Joker on Sept 16, 2008 15:21:16 GMT 10
I think there also has to be a bit of forsight by the club administrators. At some stage brining in senior first grade players becomes detrimental because it blocks the progress of young players coming through the organisation and forces them to look elsewhere for opportunities.
Or worse yet, packing the game in altogether....
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Post by Chardy on Sept 16, 2008 15:27:21 GMT 10
Junior players get nothing from senior players who kick them out of the batting cage and off the bullpen mound on training nights. What do the kids learn when the first grade players finish training and wander up to sink piss while the crusty old club life member has to rake the diamond and put away all the equipment? What do the kids learn from a first grade player who can't even name anyone in the second grade team let alone anyone playing in any of the other grades? A broad brush maybe, bu minority sports can't afford primadonas... Not sure what goes on at your club but you sound a little bitter. It is a very broad brush and I think you should pull your head in and stop considering ALL 1st Grade players like this. This sort of bulls**t post really pis*es me off. Sounds like you really need to sort out what goes on at your club. |
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Post by The Joker on Sept 16, 2008 15:31:27 GMT 10
Ahem... is/was the club you play at now Mr Hardy...
Wanna run through the list of internally developed players who have left BBC to pursure opportunities at other clubas after they found their path to first grade blocked or in jeopardy by an import?
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Post by p26 on Sept 16, 2008 15:31:58 GMT 10
The point I keep coming back to is that it really takes a lot of money to make a players leave a club where he is truly happy. That means he is happy with the players, level of competition, atmosphere, facilities, coach etc.
Easier said than done i guess, but if you can get these right then players won't leave. $'s or no $'s.
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Post by Chardy on Sept 16, 2008 15:38:43 GMT 10
Well I have never seen it go on while I have been there. I have never once seen or kicked a kid off the mound - I have stood there on many occassions and shown them how they can better themselves. Nor have I seen the same thing in the cages.
First Grade guys on this club are generally the last guys up the hill because they are still training long after the others.
Guys like Dingle who coach juniors and Andy Tierney who coaches State Juniors - but you say these "primadonnas" don't put back in??
Guys like Brendan Wilson who actually played in the 2's last year - let alone not knowing or caring about younger guys / lower grades?
Not sure which Blackburn you played for pysch - but i've never seen it.
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Post by The Joker on Sept 16, 2008 15:49:40 GMT 10
Chardy
Ask Passlow, Hubbard, Cheesman, Irving, Bumpstead, R Johnstone, T Dicker, D White, B Cooper, some of the Mann's how they have felt about imports over the past 6 years or so....
Ask some of the imports at BBC how many third-grade players they can name. And don't include the Tierney's in this discussion - they are part of the furniture at Billabong park and one of the club's few redeeming features.
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Post by p26 on Sept 16, 2008 15:51:23 GMT 10
You mean three of the clubs redeeming features? haha.
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Post by Chardy on Sept 16, 2008 16:04:22 GMT 10
Most of those players you have named aren't 1's players anyways....
Why do 1s players have to name guys in the 3's to be a "Club Man"??
Sounds like you don't believe that any players that have come to play in the last 6 years have done nothing for the club???
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Post by The Joker on Sept 16, 2008 16:09:32 GMT 10
Of course they've done something for the club - they've forced a lot of good people to leave
:-P
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Post by skyhigh on Sept 16, 2008 16:10:55 GMT 10
chardy you mentioned dingle wilson tierney etc but you never mentioned yourself.
i think you are too busy inside the changerooms kissing the mirror
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Post by The Joker on Sept 16, 2008 16:13:19 GMT 10
I found this in another thread - while it doesn't necessarily express my own opinion, I thought I would bring it across anyway :-) simple minded people like chardy wouldnt understand that The point being that the baseball community is much broader than Div 1 firsts, but many (not all) Div 1 firsts players don't seem to undertsand this... |
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Post by 350lifetime on Sept 16, 2008 16:15:09 GMT 10
Ha Ha. I think I caught you doing that once Cha
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Post by The Joker on Sept 16, 2008 16:17:46 GMT 10
Once? I heard a rumour he keeps a mirror in his glove when he is on the mound... :-P
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Post by snacks on Sept 16, 2008 16:20:13 GMT 10
Once? I heard a rumour he keeps a mirror in his glove when he is on the mound... :-P will keys has one in his wallet, hence the nickname 'mirrors'. he was a male model once upon a time. sorry wilbur |
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Post by p26 on Sept 16, 2008 16:21:39 GMT 10
It is broader psych, but the issue of players being poached generally is a div 1/2 firsts issue as it mainly affects clubs that either are, or want to be, div 1? Maybe I'm wrong, but this issue may not affect a Springvale for example. If they were to lose a Glenn Richards for example, they may not be as likely to win a div 3 flag but they are no more/less likely to go up a division?
Perhaps I've got the wrong end of the stick but is this what you mean?
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Post by The Joker on Sept 16, 2008 16:28:52 GMT 10
No panther - my point is about impact to the existing player base within a club.
What message does it send to young 17 year old Freddy who is the starting up-and-coming centrefielder in second-grade when your club goes out and chases an established CF to fill a "hole"? What happens when the club poaches 2, 3, or 4 players from other clubs over the next couple of years?
Either young Freddy has to suck it up "for the good of the club" as Chardy would argue, he looks for opportunities at another club (ala Cheesman, Hubbard, Passlow, Dicker, Johnstone, Mann, Irving, Bumstead? at BBC), or he packs up his bat and ball and goes home.
What message to the kid hey? You're not good enough to play first grade at our club and never will be so we'll replace you with a player from another club? And by the way, we'll pay him, or waive his fees, and maybe give him a uniform. But you Freddy, who have played ten years of juniors here, you have to pay your own fees, buy a uniform, and sit in second grade for the next few years even though half the coaches in the league would give their left nut to have you in their first grade side...
END RANT
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Post by 350lifetime on Sept 16, 2008 16:38:12 GMT 10
Know a bloke that keeps one in his wallet.
But I wasn't going to name names Snacks
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Post by bulldurham on Sept 16, 2008 16:38:55 GMT 10
psycho we all get it!!all right !!!! YOU HATE BLACKBURN !! Get over it and move on already!!
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