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Post by MF on Jun 1, 2013 18:15:35 GMT 10
Timely! - Just played a 9 innings game today (B1), completed with 10 minutes to spare (from a 2 hour time limit). Pitchers worked fast, threw strikes, nobody dawdled - a really enjoyable game. And yes, there were a few runs scored - 6-1 scoreline.
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Post by genghis on Jun 2, 2013 22:29:03 GMT 10
MF – the game at Straw sounds like it was a cracker. But my point is that it’s crazy to apply the game-times that high-grade pitchers can occasionally produce when they’re on top of their game, to the low and rookie grades.
I get the impression you’re a Melb Uni player. Lenny does a great job with your EE side. But if you take a look at their scorebook, you'll see the problems he and I and various other EE managers have giving all the new kids a decent go in two hours. Peterbrand – A move to Sunday play in winter for thirds and fourths (C1-C2-D1-D2 in MWBL) could produce a lot of benefits:
• Umpiring – clubs could roster 1s/2s players to umpire the 3s/4s, and 3s/4s players to umpire the 5s. Likewise for rostering players onto canteen duty.
• Game times – 3s and 4s could play 2.5 hour double headers starting 11am Sunday, a more appropriate game length for their level.
• Club cameraderie – you’d still have the cameraderie between 1s/2s and 3s/4s that oldmanriver speaks of. But you’d also have the chance for 3s/4s regulars to watch their 1s/2s on Saturday, something they rarely get to do at most clubs and many would appreciate.
• Growing the sport – cricket and soccer run comps on both Saturday and Sunday to cater for the growing number of people who work one day or other on the weekend. Running entry level grades like 5ths on Saturday, 4ths on Sunday would double baseball’s chance to attract these people ... and sporting types like footballers who are committed on Saturday.
Secondbase – please try not to misquote when accusing others of the same. I didn’t say the “8 pitches between innings over rides the 2 minutes”. See my second last post. I said the 2 minutes “is to be read in conjunction with” the rule on 8 pitches, and that the pitcher got 8 pitches provided he did it in a minute and didn’t take the changeover beyond two minutes by slow arrival at the mound. I have given sources for the rules I’ve quoted, namely ABL Rule of Baseball 8.03 (on the 8 pitches) and MWBL rule 50 (on the two minute change-over). You have given no source for your claim that ABL rule 8.03 is “irrelevant” for Victorian baseball competitions. Please tell us the rule, rule number and authority that says it doesn’t apply/is irrelevant.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 23:19:22 GMT 10
Like plenty of others, I'm getting my head around the Forum format changes that came as something of a surprise. No doubt we will cope. As we often do with all sorts of changes in life that are delivered upon us. genghis, while your argument that two hour games are a "growth killer" for baseball has not been fully persuasive, the three-hour proposition is one that has been put out there and it has certainly been argued with passion and commitment. Despite what they may say to the contrary, baseball administrators read these pages. At a time when radical structure of baseball competitions is being mooted, it is absolutely proper to throw into the mix any considered ideas - such as three-hour games for lower grades. Or any other proposal with potential to do good things for our game, such as raising participation levels or at least holding the line at a time when baseball appears vulnerable on various fronts. While I'm still not convinced that your proposition is desirable (or even workable), any such initiative would need to be considered by those in positions of baseball authority (if indeed there are any). You make some sound points though (since you are a Monash person I would hardly be surprised). This is a challenging and worthwhile discussion. There should be more of them in our sport.
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Post by stockley on Jun 3, 2013 0:01:20 GMT 10
Clearly, we are not going to agree on this topic. Fair enough. You seem very clearly set on your path, regardless of what anybody else says. You seem to have an answer.
My view on your statement above is the following: Games played on both days will indeed be the future if the sport is to grow to the larger sizes required. However, before that can happen a lot more steps are required prior to running an extra day.
You make it seem so simplistic. Sundays will mean more game time for players in the lower grades. But there are costs involved that you don't seem to think about. - Umpiring - easy to say the 1s/2s umpires umpire the 3/4's and 3/4's umpire the 5ths (btw, not sure how that would work if running 3/4 and 5ths on Sunday's), but its really not as straightforward as that. Players in all grades have families to attend to. A vast majority of players are not going to give up their Sunday's to be at the club 2 days per weekend. And what about the poor parents who may have 1 kid in the 1/2's and 1 kid or parent in the 3/4's? Are they to give up the entire weekend to baseball every weekend?
Same for the club atmosphere. This will go on to affect club culture at social occasions. Every social occasion suddenly falls before a 3/4's game - but the 1/2's have just finished playing. There will certainly be a level of disenfranchising involved with that. 3/4's players also won't tend to come down to the games as much as it would seem. Certainly, some will come, and sometimes, but families and other interests will pull them away.
Game times - for the 3/4's you've mentioned could move to 2.5 hours. What about the 5ths (E grades?) Once again, these are the teams you've mentioned needing the extra time in games, but they're still going to be limited to the 2 hour games. You have mentioned in previous posts that E grade should be able to move to 3 hour games now in single header formats. I completely disagree. The E grade clubs that have double headers running should not be asked to seperate their games to different grounds. Those clubs are already undergoing a major undertaking expanding the sport by supporting (in most cases) 6 teams within a club. They are in at least some cases then required to go to other clubs to make agreements to utilise other club grounds whilst they are not using them, i.e. Monty's E grade playing at Panton Hill's ground, Heathmont at Knox, and Watsonia playing out of Mill Park. These facilities are not going to be available every week for a single header on alternating weeks. Going to other clubs and borrowing even more grounds is not a simple task, and shouldn't be an off-hand comment. There is a lot involved with developing the relationships, and also the legalities of playing on another clubs ground.
So finally (sorry about the length everyone), I'll move to the administration. Suggesting that you move half the games to a Sunday, to add some extra playing time to some teams is great. But who is going to cover the extra administration. I can keep coming back to this all the time. I'm involved in my clubs administration. So tell me. What is the pricing structure put into place for the extra game time? Do you suggest that a player playing a two hour game pay's the same fees as a player playing a 2.5 or 3 hour game? There will certainly be people who don't agree with that. And if your club decided to put a graded fee structure into place, how do you enforce that for a player moving between levels? What about enforcing the playing conditions from a league perspective?
I have a firm belief - particularly in winter, that all players should be following the same playing conditions. Having half the club play more time, versus the other half playing what they currently do now simply does not make sense to me. You can argue all you like about pitching and balls vs strikes ratios. Work on your pitching at training, and make improvements there. Staggering a league into two sections for some additional game time doesn't sit well with me. H3ll, if you're going to give extra game time, one of the levels that is most calling out for it is A-Reserve. After all, they are generally the team that the club is developing for the future.
Summer, I'm happy to admit is a different kettle of fish. Playing an extra half hour on each level's playing time is like feasible. But again, it turns long days at the ball park into VERY long days dependant on what is happening around the club.
BTW, my name is Slade, I play for Monty, in the firsts. We played a game on the weekend against Ringwood with 2 of the better pitchers going around at the moment. I got 3 at bats for the game. All levels have ebbs and flows on the number of AB's.
Genghis, I don't know who you are, doesn't really matter. However, I wrote this to give others an insight to my point of view. Shoot me down, pull apart my comments, I am willing to listen, but that's basically where I'm coming from.
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Post by secondbase on Jun 3, 2013 23:01:28 GMT 10
genghis..re the rule of 2 minutes warm up pitches over riding a mandatory 8 pitches. The rule you ask for has already been provided. You were misinterpreting the rule. My empirical evidence is what is put in practice by umpires. Not convinced? Try telling an official umpire in your managers role that your pitchers MUST be given 8 pitches regardless of time and see how you fare! Is the motivation of your denial of reality the unpalatable fact that you are causing a significant loss of precious playing time? You can continue to deny the fact, but I won't be responding further on this point, which no doubt will be a relief for readers.
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Post by genghis on Jun 6, 2013 1:11:54 GMT 10
Stockley – You’ve raised many worthwhile points. You are absolutely right that there are costs to consider as well as benefits if we were to switch winter Thirds/Fourths to Sunday as I proposed. And I certainly have had to not only think about them but also deal with them, because I’ve been not just a long-time baseballer, but also for 22 years the main administrator of a turf cricket comp (Mercantile) that has used Saturday-Sunday play extensively to deal with ground and umpire shortages. But writing a long manifesto about the issues is not a good idea in this forum, it’s better to discuss them as they come up.
Here’s my take on some of the points you’ve raised: Umpiring load -- Most clubs would operate with roughly 18-20 regulars in their 1s/2s (a few being unavailable each week). They would need to supply umps for 9 Thirds games and 9 Fourths games at home each season under what I’m proposing. That’s one umpiring gig per 1s/2s player. And if you also want them to cover the canteen, that’s one more gig of a game’s duration. Two Sundays down at the club each season isn’t a massive ask of your 1s/2s players. Ditto for getting 3s/4s along for one or two Saturdays to umpire your Fifths/Sixths and do the canteen if you run one there. It’s certainly better than the current set-up in lower grades, where clubs often ask two players to sit out for half a game each to umpire. Strain on families – I agree most players are not going to be down at the club two days each weekend. But many like the chance to see a few games of the “other” sides, especially the Ones or teams they’ve got mates in. In the example you give of a son playing 1s/2s on a Saturday and dad playing 3s/4s on Sunday, I think most dads in this situation would see it as a positive being able to watch their sons play as well as play themselves, which can’t happen with all-Saturday play. Being a cricketer myself playing on Saturdays in summer, I love being able to watch my son play summer ball on Sundays and I probably do it every second or third weekend. Does it destroy other family life for the father and son if they are playing on different days? Having brought up two kids myself, my first response is that you are going to be hard-pressed to get a 15-20yo away from his mates on his non-baseball day anyway. But less flippantly, families usually seem to work it that dad or brother in the lower side will drop down for a week here and there to free up a day for family commitments. So in the example you give, Dad or little brother would typically go to the 5ths for the occasional game to free up some Sundays.
The big plus for the club in having its middle teams play on Sunday, is that players don’t go missing altogether. If there is a major family event on a Saturday, like a wedding, what happens at present with all-Satuday play? Dad in the 3rds and son in the 1sts both go missing. But if the 3s are playing on Sunday, son can drop down for a game with dad on Sunday. They both get to the wedding, they both get their weekend’s baseball fix, and the club isn’t left short of players. This stuff isn’t theoretical. I see it happen every weekend in the cricket comp I mentioned.
Pricing structure – I honestly think this is a non-issue Stockley. At Monash, we played about twenty seasons in the DBA with the Ones and Twos playing double headers of two hours or so, and the lower sides playing three hour games. I can’t recall a single player ever suggesting they should pay different subs. People just “got it” that in the higher grades, yes you played shorter times, but that was compensated by playing better standard, on better grounds, with proper umpires. Club social occasions – At Monash, we’ve had a women’s team playing on Sundays for many years. Often with 9.30am starts. That’s never stopped them attending club social functions on Saturday nights and enjoying themselves as much as the blokes. Yes, some will head for home around 11 if they’ve got an early game, but is that an issue? I can’t see Fourths players with a Sunday 11am game having to cramp their style too much. A Reserve should play longer – I agree. But I don’t think there is a solution for this while they play double-headers with A grade. You could scrounge another fifteen minutes by moving juniors forward to start 8.30am like the GBA, and maybe use the longer daylight in April-May-August to play a few minutes later in some months. It probably is worth the MWBL surveying how many juniors and junior coaches there are in A2 and B2 at present, since our assumptions about this may well be thirty years old. But I’m guessing they still apply. And I don’t pretend that what I’m putting forward is going to solve this. The higher grades A1-A2-B1-B2 are far better equipped to get maximum digs into a two hour game, and a lot of the players are summer ball players keeping their eye in, so that’s the argument for them, not the 3s/4s, staying on Saturday with the shorter games. Your other major points are about ground shortages, clubs with two E Grade teams, and differing playing conditions. This post is getting to be as long as War And Peace so I’ll move onto those points in another post.
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Post by genghis on Jun 8, 2013 21:34:56 GMT 10
To finish off discussion of Stockley’s points ...
Ground usage: Sunday play for Thirds and Fourths would actually mean large clubs like GMBC would need to play fewer games on borrowed grounds. The 1s/2s would play a double-header one Saturday at Blair, one of the E Grade sides would play the longer format game there the next. The 3s/4s would be at Blair one Sunday, the other E Grade side could be there the other Sunday or at Panton Hill on the Saturday – depending on what the club and the MWBL fixturing department work out between themselves.
Consistency: The two-hour double-header format has been the vehicle for some major inconsistencies between different grades. We have DP opportunities for 1s and 3s players, but not for 2s and 4s. We have re-entry into 1s and 3s, but not 2s and 4s. These are good rules, don't get me wrong, but to then use “consistency” as an argument against an improvement like extra playing time for lower grades is perverse. In fact, moving 3s/4s to Sundays, the other major proposal in this discussion, would make things more consistent. Seconds players could DP in the Thirds on Sundays,and Fourths players could DP in the Fifths on Saturday. The re-entry rule could be extended to the seconds -- if numbers were tight in a particular week, 3rds players could provide the 2nds with a bench on Saturday via “re-entry in advance”.
More importantly. Sunday play for 3s/4s could facilitate a “full re-entry” concession for any club adding a new fifths or sixths side in E Grade. Under this concession, up to three regular C or D Reserve (4ths) players on Sunday could also play a full game on the Saturday in the new side. This would help a lot of clubs get new sides going to advance the sport – often they hold back because they don’t quite have the numbers or depth, or are uncertain they will hold up. The MWBL and DBA do a good job in keeping their lowest grade entries open until round 3-4 in the season to allow clubs time to decide on extra teams. But the extra insurance of being able to double up Fourths players in the new teams in weeks of need would be a big help.
Introducing change: Obviously what I’ve proposed are big changes. Some will be interested in trying them out, some will be wary. In my view, they should be trialled gradually. First step – a trial season at E grade level where clubs can opt for either the existing 2-hour format, or a 2.5 hour format (ie 5-minute rule at 2:25). Each club would play its preferred format for its home games. Clubs wanting to try the longer format would need to have a ground available for it.
So if Monty wants to stick with two-hour double-headers for its two E grade sides, and Monash wants to try the longer game, then at Monty they play two hours and at Monash they play 2.5 hours. Each club gets to play its preferred format for at least half their games, and skeptical clubs get to try out a longer format in some away games and see if it’s really as bad as they fear. It might be that 2.5 hours is enough of a solution to the problems I’ve raised to make three hour games unnecessary, since it should mean one extra time through the order for both sides.
If the MWBL went down this route of a trial season of mixed format, two safeguards would be necessary:
• if a team is ten runs down, it should be able to invoke the mercy rule after its batting dig, any time after two hours regardless of innings. The decision should be the losing manager’s. If he still has players he wants to give more gametime to, he should have the option of continuing. If his players have had a gutful, he should be able to call it off. E Grade is about rookies and oldtimers enjoying the game, and if the fun has gone it’s lost its point.
• The winning margin in blow-outs should be reduced to 10 for percentage calculations. So if a team wins 25-3 say, it should only count as 13-3 when calculating percentage. This measure would be necessary in a format of varying game-times so that teams playing longer games do not benefit from running up cricket scores against weak teams. The current percentage system is deeply flawed anyway – it gives fourth place to teams who thrash the bottom sides by the most, contrary to the etiquette of baseball that you stop stealing and trying to humiliate a team who you are beating easily. Capping wins at 10 runs in percentage calculations would shift the advantage to teams who perform well against the good sides not just slaughter the weak sides.
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Post by MF on Jun 10, 2013 8:21:38 GMT 10
[...]• The winning margin in blow-outs should be reduced to 10 for percentage calculations. [...] The current percentage system is deeply flawed anyway – it gives fourth place to teams who thrash the bottom sides by the most[...] I tend to agree. Happily, Summer no longer uses this system at all. Ladder position is determined by win percentage, then head-to-head, then runs allowed. There is no longer any incentive for a strong team to keep pounding a weak team - unlike a dreadful season a few years ago when not beating (a certain team) by at least 50 runs potentially mean conceding a spot in the top four. It would nice if the MWBL switched to the same rule.
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