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Post by stuartcapel on Jun 6, 2012 16:50:11 GMT 10
Sorry to burst your bubbles about Moorabin boys but the lights dont work, when they resurfaced the ground a few years ago the tractor took all the cables with it for some reason, so yes the lights are there but there is no way to turn them on. Surely that can be relatively easily overcome. The structures are there, surely we have the know-how within the state to get a set of lights working again.
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Post by bobby on Jun 6, 2012 16:56:37 GMT 10
if you wanted them to work again you would need to dig up the ground again, not sure there would be enough money for that after they spent $2mil on the current surface.
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Post by pirates on Jun 6, 2012 17:02:49 GMT 10
Hey Crooksy....just finished the last few bottles of Tandarra Estate Shiraz very nice...enjoyed it.
Re communication issues, it appears pretty poor and you'd like to think they at least kept the channels open with the sponsors, hope they get the message.
You make some good points the main one being how did we let the south Melbourne ground go, that's a question worth following up. All the points about building a new ground are valid but let’s say the Port Melbourne land is bought today....nothing will happen for at least 2 years, funding, planning and building. ext. Altona is there and with a small amount of money will come up and will work for the immediate future while other venues can be decided on and built.
The point about opportunity for government not supporting any new venture because we will be using Altona is absolutely correct but that unfortunately has been the case since the league made a decision to say we are not using Altona anymore and then went ahead and kept fixturing home away games and finals there for the last 4 or 5 years. Should have walked away from it when the call was made and forcing the government to do something. Now unfortunately it’s a different economic environment. What we can do is prove to the government that we deserve a new venue by showing them we can attract big crowds to our games and plan for the future.
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Post by mc15 on Jun 6, 2012 17:12:29 GMT 10
Agreed 100% Pirates. I have no invovlement with BV these days so I don't have the background as to why they didn't walk away completely. I would assume that the enlarged schedule with the requirement of midweek night games would be a big reason behind it.
So how do we get the attendance? Well I guess we go back to my first post re a change in attitude and approach to engage fans. I clearly remember a TV report as the ABL II was about to start with the ABL CEO and one of his key objectives was for the league to be able to engage it's fans like no other league in Australia.
This is not occuring in Melbourne.
To truely support something you need a feeling of ownership. There are so many ways this can be engaged with baseball fans but there needs to be action and there needs to be action NOW!
To quote a very successful buisness man I know in Sydney "A brand is one thing... A promise kept"
Engage the fans. Commit to the fan. Follow through with your actions. Then they will come!!!
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Post by The Puma on Jun 6, 2012 18:33:04 GMT 10
Hot off the press, I understand that BV are very deep in talks with a SE council in regards to upgrading a clubs current facility to ABL standards.
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Post by moose on Jun 6, 2012 18:45:07 GMT 10
The greatest problem with the showgrounds has always been IMHO the showground management who run the venue.
They never will accept the BB as anything other than a tenant and as such we WILL NEVER GROW or IMPROVE whilst the sport pours good money after bad in trying to keep up some sort of standard with the ground and facilities which is left to revert back to a cow paddock after the BB is over.
The fact that the ground fails to draw a crowd in the two years it has been there is surely the death sentence for it? Had it done so then perhaps the investment each season may have been worth it!
The question is now how do we grow the game? Can we do it by being nomadic and not having a home ground? Is Altona the only real choice?
Neil W
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Post by mc15 on Jun 6, 2012 19:02:25 GMT 10
Moose I understand your point but here's an analogy for you...
I've rented the same place in Richmond since 2007 and I've developed a great relationship with the real-estate agent and the owner. I look after the place... I keep them informed of any issues, I don't pester them with problems I can use some common sense and logic to resolve. My rent doesn't change from year to year, and they are happy to continue with an open ended agreement as am I because it works for both parties
It's about establishing a sound trusting relationship. I know other people who often deal with the showground that find them fantastic to deal with. Why have baseball struggled? Where has the relationship broken down? Why is one or both sides unhappy? I would think it would be for the same reason we are all frustrated:
A lack of communication Secretive behaviour Inconsistencies in the decision making
If you’re going to deal with headaches, make it difficult and expensive for someone to stay. At least it would then be worth your while.
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Post by bobby on Jun 6, 2012 19:02:47 GMT 10
Take the venue out if the equation, what would be a "good attendance"? No matter where they play this should be the question going forward. I have said it before but marketing to baseball people is fine but they need to attract new people from outside of baseball. Don't take the minor league road because they are already preaching to the converted, touch base with people like the Melb Storm and Melb Rebels as they have had to adapt to a market not the other way around as it seems to be with the ABL.
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Post by mc15 on Jun 6, 2012 19:09:00 GMT 10
Take the venue out if the equation, what would be a "good attendance"? No matter where they play this should be the question going forward. I have said it before but marketing to baseball people is fine but they need to attract new people from outside of baseball. Don't take the minor league road because they are already preaching to the converted, touch base with people like the Melb Storm and Melb Rebels as they have had to adapt to a market not the other way around as it seems to be with the ABL. Halleluiah!!! Someone get Bobby a desk! Storm, Rebels, Tigers (baseketball) Vixens, the ice hockey team etc... Start building relationships. Stay away from the big ones as they'll take from you and give nothing back
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Post by brad7596 on Jun 6, 2012 19:41:11 GMT 10
Im just a newcomer to this sport. I didnt know about the abl until i clicked a link on the mlb.com website. I was enthusiastic last year i went to games, listened to games on 6pr and watched on ustream. I even watched the finals on foxtel live and made it an night with friends who didnt even know the aces existed. I was looking forward to buying a membership and getting into it. I dont know how to fix it but alienating or ignoring your current supporters isnt going to do you cause any good.
Do you think the head honches at abl headquarters follow this forum?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2012 19:50:01 GMT 10
By the way .... anyone else noticing the Brisbane Bandits FoxSports ads that have been running for weeks/months now. Its a real good ad and get so much airplay so often (during MLB telecasts amongst other sports) it isnt funny, but where's Aces the promo's ?
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Post by stuartcapel on Jun 6, 2012 19:56:31 GMT 10
I spoke to the lads about the ad when I was up in Brisbane last season, and was told (from memory) that a group approached the club and did it for them. It is very clever and professional though - no doubt about it.
Their scoreboard also had moving .gif files for every player profile, and aside from the scoreboard being waterlogged before game...three from memory, it all worked really well.
The ad of interest is the generic ABL one though, which was shot to promote 11-12 but is being reused (Perth winning the title helped that). It does say at the end of the ad that club memberships are available now, which is only correct I believe for Sydney and Perth at this point.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2012 21:37:36 GMT 10
Is anyone else getting a sense of deja vu from discussions in this thread?
Even a cursory look back at Forum discussions from two, three, nearly four years ago will show the same issues being deliberated upon.
Locating a decent venue, attracting crowds, promoting the sport, garnering media attention. All of these – and others – were going to create challenges.
Those issues are still crying out for some sort of resolution, after two seasons of ABL competition. All of this proving that, even with the backing of MLB, creating a viable national league was always going to be a tough ask.
Clearly there is still a hell of a long way to go, and much work is to be done if the league is to survive – and hopefully prosper - after the initial five-year commitment made by stakeholders.
In response to a few specific Forum comments made recently.
Yes, I think we can be reasonably confident that Aces and ABL management take some notice of Forum postings. There are plenty of good baseball people providing input here - some of it visionary, some useful, some of it not so. Aces and ABL management are entrusted with decision-making and would be well-advised to listen to reasoned and articulate comment from grassroots level.
Puma, you refer to BV being in "very deep talks" with a SE council regarding upgrade of current club facilities. Unless you can offer something in the way of recent developments, I'd suggest that you are referring to negotiations that have been going on for some time (and that, if successful, may not quite deliver a result suitable to ABL tenancy).
If something new and exciting is in the pipeline, then that’s great. But let us not deal in false hopes.
While Baseball Victoria and the Melbourne Aces are separate and autonomous organisations, development of the sport has much to gain from shared, cooperative effort. ABL success translates into greater participation numbers, while a healthy domestic competition can feed directly into the ABL programme. The two organisations cannot and should not operate independently. I believe that they surely understand that concept.
mc15, your comment about needing to "understand" the media is spot on.
From the start, people seemed to believe that mainstream media would latch on to the new national league because....well, just because.
It does not work that way. Yes, print media remains the principal driver in communications, despite the burgeoning popularity of social media and its provision for the immediate, off-the-cuff monosyllabic response.
Print journalism, though, is well and truly still alive. As are radio, television and online commentary. All are flourishing in the United States, where they do baseball pretty well!
Baseball organisations in this country do not seem to understand that - and I include Australian Baseball Federation, Australian Baseball League, the Aces and the state organisations, including Baseball Victoria.
Governing baseball bodies need to start by valuing their own communications and setting the highest possible standards within their resourcing. They need to get qualified, capable and committed persons on board and - in the first instance - get their own house in order by providing timely, articulate and decent reporting on the sport.
When and if that happens, mainstream media is far more likely to take the sport seriously.
After four decades of writing about and reporting on Australian baseball (principally as a volunteer), it bothers me that governing bodies - and most clubs – still regard their media and communications role as optional, as an add-on, something that is not really that important. It bothers me, too, that volunteers (whether qualified and committed or not) are relied upon to take on a media and communications role. And it bothers me, especially, that no younger baseball people seem to be offered the opportunity to forge a serious career – either part or full-time – in sports journalism.
It disturbs me that there is no apparent “succession” plan for when current media/communications/website persons might move on from clubs, associations or baseball governing bodies.
Yes, the ABL calls for volunteers from time to time. And it offers supposed “internships”, which I believe (and I could be wrong) may be nothing more than wannabee, unpaid positions in which very little is learned. Kids can probably get the same experiences and “qualifications” paying ten bucks for some online course. Surely we can do better than that in mentoring, teaching and helping create employment opportunities.
To my thinking, Melbourne Aces - even during the offseason - should be running regular news stories and features on its website. Basically every day. That input should be channelled through other online services and, importantly, features and items of current interest should be submitted on a regular basis to the major news outlets.
An occasional News Release is simply not enough.
As an aside, I copped flak last summer – weird, I thought at the time - for having the temerity to provide regular ABL coverage on the Baseball Victoria website (not from BV, I should add).
I asked the Forum’s Stuart Capel to help me in that regard – as he did, most admirably – for I felt that the state governing body could help set a minimal standard that could be modelled and built upon by the Aces organisation as it strengthened its presence.
Every baseball player has a story. Every baseball club – and every organisation – has a story. We need to write those stories. And we need to tell those stories through radio, television and the internet, including through social media.
Relationships can be built with mainstream media. It requires some work. But if baseball organisations can come up with the goods on a regular basis, if they can prove that they are reliable and they can provide some copy of interest to the sporting community on a regular basis, then we have a chance.
Just a chance.
It is fundamentally about effective communication. If the Aces organisation is indeed guilty of not communicating effectively with the baseball public - its members in particular - then why should major media outlets take the club or the sport seriously?
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Post by moose on Jun 7, 2012 7:49:55 GMT 10
Yes mc15 I understand your analogy and its great that you are a valued tenant that has such a good rapport with your landlord. You benefit him and he benefits you. A win - win situation.
However it is a slightly different situation when the tenant (Aces) only rents the area for four months of the year and the management has eyes for the rental to any interested party at any period of the year. Aka the traditional concert last season which meant a 39 day break from home games. How many fans did that cost? We were lucky that with the 3 or 4 road series that we did fairly well otherwise it could have been disastrous for the club, fan wise. Anyway if the rumor of a move is true then that's history.
IMHO a move to Altona is logical given that we would be moving back to a sympathetic Landlord who would be willing to host the ABL club. Appreciate any upgrades or money spent on the ground and provide better facilities for the players and spectators than does the showground at this time. Yes crowd figures may drop but then there's no guarantee that they will improve at the showgrounds were we to stay there either. One things for sure if you relocate to the east or to Altona it will cost you support from that group of fans most disadvantaged by the relocation. Probably why the old ABL had two teams in Melbourne, east(Reds) and west (Monarchs and Bushrangers).
Interestingly during the AFL game at GWS the commentators commented that the new ground had been built on a baseball ground!
Neil W
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Post by stuartcapel on Jun 7, 2012 10:49:58 GMT 10
www.theage.com.au/sport/australian-ice-hockey-league-wrap-week-six-20120606-1zvqd.htmlWill Brodie's articles about the Australian Ice Hockey League have been excellent so far this season, and provides a minority sport with some press, albeit once a week, in the broadsheet newspaper. On the papers website, there is often video highlights provided, depending on whether the Melbourne Ice were at home over the previous weekend. This week's article is somewhat relevant to baseball in this state, as it mentions an incident on the Gold Coast over the weekend where a game between the Gold Coast Blue Tongues and Melbourne Ice had to be abandoned because of the poor state of the rink. The comments of the Blue Tongues GM about needing a new facility sound very much like what we as baseball fans in Victoria are currently feeling. Fortunately for the Gold Coast Ice Hockey franchise, the major does seem behind them, and perhaps infrastructure from the coming Commonwealth Games may help see them get their new rink and facilities. Just on the Melbourne Ice, they are very well run. All games are professionally streamed via the internet live against the gate using up to six cameras, and membership tickets mean you don't have twenty plus single tickets to store and use over the course of the season. If you're an Aces fan, head down to the Docklands for a look and enjoy the game (I'm sure you will). As I stated before last season, I believe the Aces should get down there, see how it all works and use that as a minimum requirement for the coming ABL season.
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Post by stuartcapel on Jun 7, 2012 13:34:46 GMT 10
Good to see that after a slow start, Dom Ramos has come alive for the Sugar Land Skeeters in the tough Atlantic League.
While the Skeeters have won just two of their past nine games, Dom has gone 12-33 (.363) over those nine games and is now hitting .263, is now playing every day and leading off.
Interesting to note the Skeeters faced Virgil Vasquez today and chased him after 3.2 innings after banging out ten hits. Vasquez now owns a 5.14era.
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Post by oldmanriver on Jun 7, 2012 13:47:37 GMT 10
It seems a moot point, but back when we had the two sides playing, Reds and Monarchs and the the Bushrangers later on, the biggest crowds were being pulled by the Reds out at Waverley, I think on average the crowd was a healthy 5K plus. It did falter a lot when it moved to Moorabbin as it proved to be a sub standard playing ground. The Altona based teams were lucky to draw squat. When the first National League was up and running and press coverage was more than adequate, there was a dramatic increase in juniors playing baseball. When the league died, so did the juniors drop off alarmingly. With the new version of a National League, it appears that the management of the Aces seem to be running around with their heads in the clouds and forgetting to actually take a long hard look at what is going on and approach the many problems one at a time and get it right. The opening game at the Showgrounds last year highlighted the lack of interaction the Aces hierachy in that there was a welcome drinks and nibbles for invitees, but no one from the Aces even took the time to come to the room and introduce themselves and welcome the people. It just smacked of what a lot of people were thinking that night, that the management have no idea how to attract people. They must get that area right and the rest will fall into place.
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Post by The Puma on Jun 7, 2012 13:49:40 GMT 10
Different council kc.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2012 14:10:42 GMT 10
Do you think the head honches at abl headquarters follow this forum? I suspect it is a bit like approaching a car crash scene.....you know you probably shouldnt look, and that if you do look you may not like what you see...but you look anyway.
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Post by moose on Jun 7, 2012 16:21:48 GMT 10
OMR the old ABL was a much different beast than MKII version that we now see. IIRC the reds were run by the Waverley Baseball Club. The bushrangers were run by Montmorency? or Greensborough club. Not sure who ran the Monarchs. The big difference was that they played at Waverley on the now defunct AFL/VFL ground in a new growth area of family housing at that time, just like Altona, Point Cook, Tarniet, Caroline springs and the such now.
Neil W
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Post by mackem on Jun 7, 2012 17:44:56 GMT 10
Interestingly during the AFL game at GWS the commentators commented that the new ground had been built on a baseball ground! Neil W That would be the ground used for the 2000 Sydney Olympics.
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Post by mackem on Jun 7, 2012 17:51:41 GMT 10
OMR the old ABL was a much different beast than MKII version that we now see. IIRC the reds were run by the Waverley Baseball Club. The bushrangers were run by Montmorency? or Greensborough club. Not sure who ran the Monarchs. The big difference was that they played at Waverley on the now defunct AFL/VFL ground in a new growth area of family housing at that time, just like Altona, Point Cook, Tarniet, Caroline springs and the such now. Neil W In the early 1990's Footscray Football Club took over the francise of the Monarchs and for a couple of seasons played at Whitten (Western) Oval before moving to Altona.
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Post by windsor on Jun 7, 2012 18:22:20 GMT 10
Hello forum, They say "no news is good news" but Probably in this case a few would be appropriate to give you an update on the Melbourne Aces.
It is true that we have delayed our membership and ticket pricing for the 2012-2013 season and not something we had planned on doing for this upcoming season but sometimes things take a bit longer than hoped for.
There is much going on behind the scenes and I assure you we want to open the membership gates as much as you want to come through. We hope to get things going in the next few weeks. Our sponsors and suppliers are engaged and ready for the next season.
We do read the forum and keep up with the latest comments, some good, some not so good but thats what makes this forum unique.
Thanks to all of you for supporting the Aces and for being patient.
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Post by mc15 on Jun 7, 2012 19:37:55 GMT 10
Our sponsors and suppliers are engaged and ready for the next season. Windsor Tandarra Estate is clearly concerned about the comment above. Perhaps you would like to clarify this in more detail to as as you and your staff has not made any contact with us since the last game played in Melbourne. If you would not like our support, please let us know and so we can move on. My email address remains unchained
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Post by windsor on Jun 7, 2012 20:03:10 GMT 10
Shall I clarify, that we have engaged our sponsor network, not all of them given the time and offseason staffing we have. Of course we still have some work to do in finalizing all our sponsors including Tandarra who were part of the Aces last season, we sold only your wine last season and look to continue that going forward. We will over the course of the next month look to get this area of the business locked in for the next season.
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Post by lucadello on Jun 7, 2012 20:13:05 GMT 10
Shall I clarify, that we have engaged our sponsor network, not all of them given the time and offseason staffing we have. Of course we still have some work to do in finalizing all our sponsors including Tandarra who were part of the Aces last season, we sold only your wine last season and look to continue that going forward. We will over the course of the next month look to get this area of the business locked in for the next season. WOW.....There is an old saying...."there are lies, dam.ned lies & statistics" This is not a statistic.
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Post by windsor on Jun 7, 2012 21:19:29 GMT 10
Wow
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Post by perfeckt on Jun 7, 2012 21:22:06 GMT 10
No kc it is not just you having a sense of dejavu, I too am feeling it keenly. I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that the low numbers at "The Show" had little to do with the location and in fact it was always expected. I for one enjoyed the atmosphere and would suggest that spectators new to the sport would have also, even with the ad hoc toilets, lack of shade et al. There's no doubt that there were definite improvements in season Mk2 just as there's no doubt that there was room for improvement. Season Mk2 also garnered a significant increase in interest from Victorian media in regard to the Aces and national media interest (TV at least) in the fledgling league when compared to season Mk1. So far (regarding the above), so good and there is momentum but the main thing that will kill off that momentum is lack of communication and the miscommunication for the members, sponsors and media at this time. I know of several broadcast presenters and producers (state and national) whose interest have been piqued by the last couple of seasons with a couple of them even now have kids playing T-ball, one of whom is with Windsors Vic' summer club. There is opportunity out there going begging. If Altona is to become home for the Aces (I'd like to hear what the players have to say about that) then nothing short in regular internet broadcasts properly produced and with more than 2 cameras will make it work IMHO. Combined with proper engagement with the party faithful and their passion for spreading the word to prospective and potential baseball fans, the proper engagement of sponsors (with net broadcasting increasing the value of their input), then I can't see the Aces long term prospects being too bright no matter what ground or location they play at. mc15 you said it and I'll paraphrase here...relationships built on trust and communication. I hope for a bright future for the Aces and the ABL and for the players who are investing so much of their hopes and dreams.
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Post by bobby on Jun 7, 2012 21:34:16 GMT 10
Let's be honest, most clubs would have better facilities than the show grounds.....for a so called "professional" team to only have 2 showers is a disgrace, I bet if you asked the players about the show grounds they wouldn't care if they never played there again.
I think everyone needs to realise that baseball is not a tier 1 or 2 sport it is a tier 3 or 4 at best, it is no longer in the Olympics so it doesn't get as much funding. The only way it is going to get better is to be clear and transparent, have open communication and let people help that know what they are doing!
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dRoy
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Post by dRoy on Jun 7, 2012 22:47:25 GMT 10
Hi Windsor.
You get my first ever post on here.
I know many members that hate the tickets that you give out before every season!!! (myself included) Just give us a bloody card with a barcode on it. You have given us the card part, now supply us with the barcode. Saves trying to keep the tickets in a certain place or remembering to bring them to each game. You have the ticket scanner at the gates. So that's not a problem. Would save several minutes (times 500 patrons) watching the volunteer try and rip my ticket stub and keep a small part where you have to manually count the attendance later. You have to move with the times. This is what happens in Melbourne. It's all card based memberships. Even my local footy club have a card where they punch a hole in the game you attend.
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